Challenge Thoughts

I'm fine with an hour shagging cones. We can sign up for worker stations in the morning like a regular autocross.

I like the car show idea but it may be difficult to organize. As far as presenting budgets, I had a complete copy of my budget available for anyone who wanted to see it including comps for other cars in my area at similar prices. No one even asked.

Argo1 thanks for the kind words.

SVreX you're right. The rules don't say street legal they say road worthy. It was nice to meet you, BTW.

I may have know a certain car which was driven to the challenge without all the "road equipment". RainX FTW.

Per Schroeder wrote: A6s and the like are DOT legal...therefore legal for our autocross, and there is another rule that drag tires don't have to be DOT approved.

Oh, did I misunderstand?

Do you mean DOT's for the drags??

If so, I don't like it. Drag race cars needs drag race tires. Failure to use decent drag tires will hurt times, chase away drag racers, and be potentially less safe.

If you'd like to tighten up the rule to exclude A6's, etc for the autox, that's up to you. It will draw a different type of car.

Are you trying to attract cars that might actually be street drivers, or cars that are more radical? Is one better editorial content? Is one worse?

The tires will determine the type of cars.

The autocross could have a section of straight timed to get acceleration and top speed numbers to supplement or replace drag numbers if needed.

I would love to see segment numbers for each car.

Shagging cones is reasonable.

Can I apply the dozen or so hours I've already got in?

Just kidding. I don't mind doing it at all.

Could there be a substitute? It's hard on a one man team if his car is not running well. Maybe one way a team could help a guy out is to substitute for his shift shagging cones.

I kinda like the "parade" idea, but it might be tough to work out with the city. My car doesn't have a title, but is pretty drivable and I think it would be fun.

I would also like something done to help us drag racers. The challenge is supposed to show which car can do the auto-x and drags combined. I built my car as a drag car hoping that it would make up for a not so good auto-x time. I know the magazine originated from auto-x enthusiasts but I got screwed hard by not getting a drag score. I feel that the drag portion should get just as much of an opportunity as the auto-x or don't bother having it.

Also, somewhat on the idea others had, why not use the road course at the track. Stumbling through a confusing maze of cones doesn't interest me too much, but I would put a lot more effort into handling if it was on the road course. I'm not trying to knock on auto-x guys, but I would be content with a drag only event. It's just my own interest though.

i'd like to see a short road course take the place of autocross.

I think slicks should be allowed though. Afterall, thats how we do it on other track/street cars. Slicks for track, street tires for street.

dimarra wrote: Coming from a couch competitor... Would it be feasible to have an all-in-one track? (I know it depends mainly on the venue.) I'm thinking a drag run that turns off into the auto-x portion which then leads into the "rally-x" portion. The "rally-x" portion needn't be any more than another auto-x course with some sand/dirt/gravel/water/whatever thrown on the pavement. ...and replenished/swept after each run. No competitor would have a tire advantage because no tire could do it all well. Timing could be based on the singular run or broken down and indexed. Just thinking out loud, Keith

Some of those cars had REALLY nice paint (e.g. K-car and Firebird) I would not want to put them anywhere near gravel.

As an aside, was I the only one having trouble with the center section of the autocross course?

I got lost

aussiesmg wrote: As an aside, was I the only one having trouble with the center section of the autocross course? I got lost

Nope, you weren't the only one. My teammate got lost two of the three times he drove the autocross. Of course, it was his first one.

SVreX wrote: I am personally a big fan of what I call radical builds. Engineering marvels like Bryce's, Pat's, mid-engined trucks, or the Nelson's. If these are the best editorial content, then add bonus concourse points for radical builds. If the best editorial content is modified street Miatas with bolt-ons, limit the over-engineered. At the core, it's all still about the content, right?

I also like the weird engineering

We like the weird engineering. As an engineering program, that's why we compete. There's no engineering challenge to putting a turbo kit on a Civic. We have to challenge our students to keep getting funding and justifying our existence.

SVreX wrote: If so, I don't like it. Drag race cars needs drag race tires. Failure to use decent drag tires will hurt times, chase away drag racers, and be potentially less safe.

OK lets reword that:

If so, I don't like it. auto-X cars needs auto-X tires. Failure to use decent auto-X tires will hurt times, chase away auto-X racers, and be potentially less safe.

Why should drag racers get better tires?

Let me preface this by saying I hereby withdraw the idea of a rally-x portion in the Challenge. Clearly its time has not yet come (and may never based on the replies posted here). But, that said, I do wanna say this:

Being the one that threw the rally-x substitution (i.e. not adding an event, but a temporary replacement of the auto-x portion), I suppose I just don't quite get this "some cars are too nice to handle sand/dirt/gravel/mud" thinking. Consider this: if the Challenge had originally been formatted to include a rally-x portion, would folks still complain? Probably not. They'd just accept it as part of the nature of the Challenge itself. They would build their cars accordingly. And judgement and scoring would be done appropriately. There would be no discussion of whether a car was "too nice" to get into the rough stuff a bit, since that's what they would've been built for.

I think we all acknowledge that most folks would be hesitant to take a particularly pristine car and subject it to much off-roading of any sort. But if that's the expectation going in, then folks probably wouldn't worry so much about how pristine the car was going in. And given the amount of grumbling I've read about the concours portion of the judging (either as being too subjective, or not clearly defined, how much less significant its portion is in scoring, or whatever), then maybe a bit less pristine might be okay. And a lower general level of concours preparedness would become the new norm. Or the nature/criteria of the concours judging would have to change to match the kind of appeal that rally-x type cars embody.

The other thing is, knowing my own (and my likely team members') skill levels, I only anticipate participating because it seems like it'll be a crapton load of fun. If I was worried about being competitive, I think I'd have to seek out a pro or semi-pro painter, fabricator, engineer, and body specialist. As it is, I'm just a classically trained musician that just happens to be into cars as a passion and hobby. On the upside, win or lose, I'm gonna have a good time doing it.

Per Schroeder wrote: A6s and the like are DOT legal...therefore legal for our autocross, and there is another rule that drag tires don't have to be DOT approved.

I also saw a car on the autocross course with non-DOT tires, if there was doubt to that comment.

Bryce

DUMONT wrote: i'd like to see a short road course take the place of autocross. I think slicks should be allowed though. Afterall, thats how we do it on other track/street cars. Slicks for track, street tires for street.

My take on this is that there's a big difference in safety gear between an autox and a road course. Plus it's a lot harder to organize for the organizers. Don't plan on that changing a whole lot - Per et al are not looking to make their lives more difficult.

It mint be worthwhile defining just what makes a car road worthy. Headlights, taillights, brake lights, wipers - what else? We can assume all Challengers will have brakes and all the stuff to make a car turn. Ability to idle for 20 minutes without overheating?

darkbuddha wrote: If I was worried about being competitive, I think I'd have to seek out a pro or semi-pro painter, fabricator, engineer, and body specialist.

Under the current rules, I'm not sure why...

Per Schroeder wrote: Theoretically, a car with well applied paint and nothing overly amazing in the engine compartment will score about the same as a Jet-engined Yugo with primer.

FWIW, though, I'm more interested in reading about the Yugo, and think things with great engineering or fabrication should be scored higher in contours...

JoeyM wrote:

Per Schroeder wrote: Theoretically, a car with well applied paint and nothing overly amazing in the engine compartment will score about the same as a Jet-engined Yugo with primer.

FWIW, though, I'm more interested in reading about the Yugo, and think things with great engineering or fabrication should be scored higher in contours...

Yes, but are you more likely to use the info of how to jet-propel your Yugo or the info of how to get a good looking paint job on a beater? One is sensational, but nearly worthless. The other is really useful and is the reason I read magazines like GRM.

This was my first year competing and I think the rules are just fine the way they are. I really would only like to see the budget sheets of the top finishing cars to get an idea of what I need to do to finish higher. If they could be made available at the banquet, that would be fantastic.

The fire extinguisher rule seems alright

Adding lug nuts and studs to the excluded list seems fine to me, it seems to fit along the lines of safety equipment.

Definitely do not change the tire rule for the autox, do you really want a bunch of ST style Miata's and Civic's winning on the auto-x?

I felt the concourse judging went really slow and that took away my ability to help on course or even watch other competitors runs.

The things I have trouble with are figuring out fmv for parts that I already own. How does the replacing tires work if I purchased a set of wheels and tires do I just split the cost down the middle?

I think the tire rules are good as is. DOT R spec tires are allowed in the autocross as per SCCA. I personally did not observe a car running that did not have DOT tires. Non DOT drag slicks are allowed for the drag and are a good idea. The LeMons V8 Rx7 spun his street tires the whole way down the track. Never hooked up. The Vorschlag BMW used their R spec DOT tires and that probably caused them to break their transmission. Drag slicks would have hooked up solidly. The DOT tires hooked, spun, hooked, spun and the shock loads broke the tranny. Right now the rules allow for the right tires for each event.

I believe the TR7 had non-DOT tires.

And I think the wet track was more of an issue that lack of slicks for the Vorshlag guys.

Looking at my photos, it appears you are correct on the TR7. There is also no disputing that the track was less than ideal with the weather.

modernbeat wrote: I believe the TR7 had non-DOT tires. And I think the wet track was more of an issue that lack of slicks for the Vorshlag guys.

Autocross tires really really suck for drag racing. They spin, hop, grab and release, etc... Drag slicks wind up gently and apply a higher level of grip more smoothly which is much nicer to your transmission. Vorshlag would have been way better off with true drag slicks.

GUNDY wrote: Why should drag racers get better tires?

That's not too hard.

Because they are running in excess of 100 mph.

You can have a legitimate autocrossing experience on street tires. You can't have a legitimate drag racing experience on street tires.

I'm not a legitimate drag racer, but those who are know the difference. Most of us would be pretty happy running 14 second 1/4's. That doesn't cut it for a drag racer.

If the event is crafted around 13 or 14 second runs, I suspect we will loose the interest of people like Pat and Andy (or anyone else serious about drag racing). Probably also loose the interest of Hot Rod Magazine (which is where I learned about the Challenge and GRM).

But that's up to GRM. Like I have said several times, the tire rules will determine the editorial content.

MrJoshua wrote:

92CelicaHalfTrac wrote: Personally, assuming my car was in good working order, i'd be more than happy to tend the course for an hour.

That is a very bold assumption for most competitors. On Friday all we did was coucours, change to autocross wheels, change tire pressures, bolt up the rear bar, talk to the pro about proper changes, and clean the car for concours. That took all day. It was a good running car that experienced no problems and there wasn't a spare hour available. If their had been a spare hour I would have spent it checking out competitors cars. It is the one time a year a large group of like minded people are within walking distance and I really don't want to miss it.

Out of curiosity, who works the course if we don't? Maybe look into "hiring" the local SCCA organization to put on the event? I know our region works the course and timing for One Lap when it comes through.

Increase entry fee by say... $20, put the extra towards donation to the local region, recruit them to work the course?

Either way, i'm good. I fully plan to not touch my car at all once i get there. It's had two years of shakedown/DD duties.

Of course... that's the plan, and things never go according to.