Challenge to the 2009 Challengers

Per Schroeder wrote:

914Driver wrote: I've said it before: "Next time I'm buying a $1900 car, a can of wax and a 12 pack."

What are you going to drink on Friday and Saturday?

I was going to ask what he was going to drink after the first hour or so.

plance1 wrote: But in this day and age, with this economy, since we are supposed to be low buck oriented, what logical sense does it make for people to invest $20,000 of free labor in a car that they know they will ever get close to getting back? No project ever gets anywhere near close to the money back on a car but using your resources wisely is a valid criteria to add to the contest by simply acknowledging the true value, or total cost or "street value" of your efforts. Are we low-buck people or not? And contrary to the suggestion, I’m not arguing for a $500 rule and that we all show up in beaters. That’s just a simplistic exaggeration designed to avoid the point. I suggested a $5,000 limit. Again, what can you build for that amount? Establishing a total cost limit would encourage MORE participation, not less. A few of the people, a few of the engineering teams, etc, would leave but hey, you guys can always turn to Formula 1 racing. Oh but wait, they too have started limiting expenditures….

You inadvertently just defined the exact reason the Challenge rules are written the way they are. In any economy, but MOST importantly in this one, it is about the time and talent folks have to put into a project, not the amount of money. And how would you value someone's time anyway. Is yours worth more than mine? Mine more than yours? Talk about an impossible task.

I'm a 2 time Challenge competitor with meager mechanical skills and even worse fabrication skills. I chose to compete because I wanted to, after spectating for several years. As my screen name indicates, I was itching to compete. I knew going into it that I had no chance to win, because I do not have the a) skill, b) determination, or; c) time that some other competitors do. Regardless, as friedgreencorrado so elegantly put it, I decided that it meant more to participate than to simply watch or read about the competition. I went from wanting to doing. I have the privilege of saying I'm a former Challenge competitor.

And, as a result, I now have 2 friends I consider lifelong friends as a result. Never knew 'em from Adam before hand, but, through this board, I placed a call for help (see above reference to my almost complete lack of skills) and Josh and Charlie responded. We spent many a night in Josh's driveway with a worklight struggling to get the cars built. Built they got and we competed.

Ironically, I've sold both Challenge cars to other GRM folks and, in both instances, for less than $200X. I was willing to do that because, even though we put a lot of hours into them, my route has been to buy cars that were failed projects that popped up on CL and mostly needed finishing. Neither was a ground up build approaching the realm of a Wheels777 family build and that's why the cars didn't score well in the concours, where engineering and creativity are highly prized.

This year, I'm foregoing the Challenge and instead attempting to join the UTCC event instead. One of the primary reasons is my lack of skill and lack of time. Building the UTCC car that Josh, Charlie and I have planned will still require manhours, but I'm okay paying more for parts and some professional help to get the car done. Given that, it doesn't fit as a Challenge car and that's fine. I'll still be at the $2009 Challenge cheering everyone on.

Oh yeah, 93CelicaGT2, you're more than welcome to come down to Evansvillle and wrench on a challenge car any time you'd like.

16vCorey wrote: Oh yeah, 93CelicaGT2, you're more than welcome to come down to Evansvillle and wrench on a challenge car any time you'd like.

I will probably take you up on that offer. I'll warn ahead of time that unless it's a Honda or a Toyota, i'll probably be good for not a whole lot, but i gotta learn sometime.

I need to get an actual team together for 2010.... i want to build something ground up and do it "right."

I'll be free after April to come down pretty much whenever once the vert is out of my garage, and the next round done on the hatch.

Or up to Lansing... either way bring beer.

John Brown wrote: Or up to Lansing... either way bring beer.

You guys don't have nazi liquor store owners up there, do you? I have a real hard time buying booze down here, they refuse to believe i'm old enough, even with valid id.

<------- baby face looks 16.

DILYSI Dave wrote:

poopshovel wrote:

I have an idea for a rule... no proposing rules without having been to the event once.

WIN. That being said, I would've sold the A-hole car, the General, or the Boss Hong (pre-destruction, of course,) for less than $2k. You'd have to ask Wayne whether or not he'd sell the s00p3rturd for $2k. I'm guessing he'd say something to the effect of "Do you have any idea how much time I spent detailing that engine bay, you berkeleying dumb berkeley?" Combine this with the fact that that car is now the prettiest berkeleying thing he owns, and there's your answer. I stood, sledge-hammer in hand, and asked anyone at the concours tent if they wanted the car before we destroyed it. Bidding started at one dollar. Nobody bid...yet later that night, and even months later, everyone and their berkeleying brother started in with the "Dude, you guys shouldn't have wrecked that car, I totally would've bought it." My point? The world is full of "I was gonna's" (my 7 year old niece says this a lot.) I'm a struggling business owner. Wayne manages a trailer park. We live an hour and a half away from each other, and we both feel very fortunate to have a 2-car garage. The Challenge car is "mine" this year. This means that the car stays at my house (that was a fun conversation with the wife,) and I'm responsible for all of the cost. I'm berkeleying struggling HARD right now financially, so I'm desperately trying to keep our total budget @ less than $500 all in, and still hope to build a winner. This isn't to prove some kind of berkeleying point. I'm working with the budget I've got. Even $500 is going to be a stretch once the gas, hotel, and entry are accounted for. Fortunately, I've got 3 INCREDIBLE friends who have already blown 2 weekends busting their asses to get the ball rolling, putting their own numerous projects aside, to make this the earliest we've ever had some real progress on a Challenger. I work on the car an average of 1 hour per night. That's roughly 180 hours of labor if I can keep it up. If you can't afford 1 hour/night, good for you. You have a productive and fulfilling life. So why the berkeley are you trolling on message boards? If GRM changes the rules tomorrow, we'll still be there, as long as we're invited. If we get booted from our house tomorrow, and are forced to move into a E36 M3-hole apartment, we'll still be there (I've wrenched in parking lots more than twice.) And if my 300,000 mile daily driver 91 Integra kicks it tomorrow, I'll still find a way to bring something down. BTW, I've probably got a total investment of $5,000 worth of strictly replacement parts and maintenance in this thousand dollar, 300,000 mile piece of E36 M3, not including hundreds of hours of labor, but I'll sell it to YOU, TODAY, for the LOW LOW price of $2009. Keep finding excuses not to play. More free beer for me. /rant over.

Your rant makes me want to berkeley.

Your ability to say exactly what I did in less than one paragraph makes me want to berkeley. Wanna share a room this year?

93celicaGT2 wrote:

16vCorey wrote: Oh yeah, 93CelicaGT2, you're more than welcome to come down to Evansvillle and wrench on a challenge car any time you'd like.

I will probably take you up on that offer. I'll warn ahead of time that unless it's a Honda or a Toyota, i'll probably be good for not a whole lot, but i gotta learn sometime.

Sweet. I'll take all the help I can get. I'll even supply the beer. Do you do body work? Because I absolutely hate that E36 M3.

16vCorey wrote:

93celicaGT2 wrote:

16vCorey wrote: Oh yeah, 93CelicaGT2, you're more than welcome to come down to Evansvillle and wrench on a challenge car any time you'd like.

I will probably take you up on that offer. I'll warn ahead of time that unless it's a Honda or a Toyota, i'll probably be good for not a whole lot, but i gotta learn sometime.

Sweet. I'll take all the help I can get. I'll even supply the beer. Do you do body work? Because I absolutely hate that E36 M3.

Depends on what bodywork you're talking, and how professional you want it to look. I don't mind doing relatively minor dentwork, but i'm no pro at it. If it requires cutting and welding, i should warn you that i'm probably the world's worst welder.

16vCorey wrote:

Per Schroeder wrote:

914Driver wrote: I've said it before: "Next time I'm buying a $1900 car, a can of wax and a 12 pack."

What are you going to drink on Friday and Saturday?

I was going to ask what he was going to drink after the first hour or so.

I think I had 12 before it got dark on Thursday.

I really have a tough time understanding your real point. And I'm not kidding. You claim that in these hard times, we need to factor in some kind of value to our spare time. When the point of this exercise is to actually show that you can add value, in terms of looks and performance- since that is what is VALUED in the challenge, by hard work and creativity. Eric

Eric, you're not getting the point because you're not even trying to, you're so close. Reread your sentence above. If the "point of this exercise is to actually show that you can add value..." ok then, great but then why not prove it??? If you are adding value with your blood sweat and tears why not allow this value to be measured with some objective criteria?! Why not allow it to at least be as important as the subjective category as appearance????

plance1 wrote: Why not allow it to at least be as important as the subjective category as appearance????

The last thing the competition needs is more subjectivity.

plance1 wrote:

I really have a tough time understanding your real point. And I'm not kidding. You claim that in these hard times, we need to factor in some kind of value to our spare time. When the point of this exercise is to actually show that you can add value, in terms of looks and performance- since that is what is VALUED in the challenge, by hard work and creativity. Eric

Eric, you're not getting the point because you're not even trying to, you're so close. Reread your sentence above. If the "point of this exercise is to actually show that you can add value..." ok then, great but then why not prove it??? If you are adding value with your blood sweat and tears why not allow this value to be measured with some objective criteria?! Why not allow it to at least be as important as the subjective category as appearance????

But then even if i value my time at what i get paid at work, even assuming i get the car for free..... i have to get it race ready within 100 hours. Get a $1000 pos, 50 hours. And so on.

If they allow for that, the "Dollar amount" (It's dollars, not hours!) has to be adjusted, and then it's no longer the GRM $200x Challenge.

What it comes down to is: You're building a race car for $2000 for pete's sake. If you want to spend less than that, go for it. If you don't want to spend any time on it, fine, do that. Nobody is telling you how to build your car.

The LESS time is allowed within the budget (which is essentially what you're proposing) the LESS Grassroots it becomes. Pretty strange considering the name of the sanctioning body....

This is a challenge about ingenuity. Be as lazy as you want. But don't complain about being beaten by the guy that spend 3000 hours building a car that cost EXACTLY $2009 DOLLARS.

dyintorace wrote:

You inadvertently just defined the exact reason the Challenge rules are written the way they are. In any economy, but MOST importantly in this one, it is about the time and talent folks have to put into a project, not the amount of money.

Oh really? This coming from the guy who has the BMW and is admitting he is paying others to do his work.

dyintorace wrote: And how would you value someone's time anyway. Is yours worth more than mine? Mine more than yours? Talk about an impossible task.

Its not impossible if you think about it and get ideas from others, maybe the criteria is based on a vote by others in the competition, maybe its the dreaded claim rule or maybe there is another suggestion. As I said from the beginning, sorting out everyone's individual value has never been the point, I say let the market decide or let there be a limit on TOTAL COST.

I'm a 2 time Challenge competitor with meager mechanical skills and even worse fabrication skills. I chose to compete because I wanted to, after spectating for several years. As my screen name indicates, I was itching to compete. I knew going into it that I had no chance to win, because I do not have the a) skill, b) determination, or; c) time that some other competitors do. Regardless, as friedgreencorrado so elegantly put it, I decided that it meant more to participate than to simply watch or read about the competition. I went from wanting to doing. I have the privilege of saying I'm a former Challenge competitor.

Congrats

And, as a result, I now have 2 friends I consider lifelong friends as a result. Never knew 'em from Adam before hand, but, through this board, I placed a call for help (see above reference to my almost complete lack of skills) and Josh and Charlie responded. We spent many a night in Josh's driveway with a worklight struggling to get the cars built. Built they got and we competed.

Thats great, good for you!

Ironically, I've sold both Challenge cars to other GRM folks and, in both instances, for less than $200X. I was willing to do that because, even though we put a lot of hours into them, my route has been to buy cars that were failed projects that popped up on CL and mostly needed finishing. Neither was a ground up build approaching the realm of a Wheels777 family build and that's why the cars didn't score well in the concours, where engineering and creativity are highly prized. This year, I'm foregoing the Challenge and instead attempting to join the UTCC event instead. One of the primary reasons is my lack of skill and lack of time. Building the UTCC car that Josh, Charlie and I have planned will still require manhours, but I'm okay paying more for parts and some professional help to get the car done. Given that, it doesn't fit as a Challenge car and that's fine. I'll still be at the $2009 Challenge cheering everyone on

Thats great too.

Winston wrote: The point of the Challenge is to spend $200x and HOWEVER MUCH OF YOUR OWN LABOR YOU WANT TO to create the best car. That is all. We all know that. Nobody has their heads in the sand. And as others have said, the other point of the Challenge is to have a good time.

SVreX wrote: On second though, plance1... ...I'm not sure you are going to "get it".

He has that history... I vividly recall the Toyota Echo "debate" on the old board, where he also refused to get it. Even more ridiculous than this thread, if I recall correctly.

Holy cow, a new reader remembers a "debate" about an Echo? Seriously now, you are really reaching back, way back to an irrelevant topic, you must truly be the guy who started that thread by declaring your feelings were hurt because noone else appreciated your Toyota Echo. I merely responded thats all. Seems like your feelings are still hurt. Get over it.

plance1 wrote: ...or let there be a limit on TOTAL COST.

There is. $2009. Where have you been?

plance1 wrote:

dyintorace wrote:

You inadvertently just defined the exact reason the Challenge rules are written the way they are. In any economy, but MOST importantly in this one, it is about the time and talent folks have to put into a project, not the amount of money.

Oh really? This coming from the guy who has the BMW and is admitting he is paying others to do his work.

Where did I admit that I paid others to do my work for my past Challenge efforts? You're doing a wonderful job of selectively quoting, as you left out the part where I mentioned the countless hours spent in Josh's driveway working on both of them.

And that BMW you are hating on? It's a 2002 with 80k miles that I bought used. Keep trying.

16vCorey wrote:

plance1 wrote: ...or let there be a limit on TOTAL COST.

There is. $2009. Where have you been?

/thread.

Every so often, I'll have someone asking me about the time and effort I have put into the Abomination. Before that it was the effort and time I put into my dirt bikes, before that the R/C cars, soon it will be the Jensenator... you get the picture. Invariably I get asked 'how much money do you win?' and I say 'zip'. The look is pretty much always the same: goggle eyed disbelief.

The same thing happens occasionally when people ask me about my Jensen-Healey: the first words out of their mouths are 'how much can you get for it?' To these people, it's all about the money. They do not, nor will they ever 'get it' (which is the fact that I have always wanted one and the financial factor is a distant second to that) so I just don't bother to try to explain it. It's like the Harley T shirt: 'if I have to explain, you wouldn't understand.'

plance1, as a half dork you've obviously been around this board a good bit. It seems odd that you don't seem to 'get it'. Or you are just yanking chains.

plance1 wrote:

Winston wrote: The point of the Challenge is to spend $200x and HOWEVER MUCH OF YOUR OWN LABOR YOU WANT TO to create the best car. That is all. We all know that. Nobody has their heads in the sand. And as others have said, the other point of the Challenge is to have a good time.

SVreX wrote: On second though, plance1... ...I'm not sure you are going to "get it".

He has that history... I vividly recall the Toyota Echo "debate" on the old board, where he also refused to get it. Even more ridiculous than this thread, if I recall correctly.

Holy cow, a new reader remembers a "debate" about an Echo? Seriously now, you are really reaching back, way back to an irrelevant topic, you must truly be the guy who started that thread by declaring your feelings were hurt because noone else appreciated your Toyota Echo. I merely responded thats all. Seems like your feelings are still hurt. Get over it.

New board name, thus the "New Reader" status. Not my Echo, never owned one, no hurt feelings (not sure if I even posted in that thread)... I just remember that you were a total douche then, too. So much so that every time I see "plance1" I remember that thread.

Plance, reading comprehension is a little hard for you, huh? Slow down and re-read his post. Dyintorace is talking about paying for professional help on an UTCC car, which is approached completely differently than a $200x car.

In UTCC you do not have a rule-based dollar limit, so things that you normally would go without or have to make do with your own labor/skills you can hire out if you want with no penalty to any rules, except your own.

In the case of building and installing a rollcage for example, I think getting one professionally installed is a good idea when it is important for the safety of the driver. In other cases, having the fuel injection/carburetion professionally tuned may save you an expensive race motor and ensure you don't leave power on the table, whereas doing it yourself you may toast a motor or have to be conservative to finish the event.

Think about the nature of the competition for the UTCC versus the $200x. However, understand the spirit of the events are the same. A lightweight rule set to allow people to be creative and generate intellectual discussion and magazine content.

Honestly, if someone built a Challenge car and told me that they spent 5 years of their life building it, I'd merely ask if they enjoyed it? I'd ask the same question to someone who bought a $1900 car and brought it down after spending money on a few items. Once they answered the questions, I wouldn't think better or worse about the person/team. I'd look at what they've done and try to learn something from them. Either way, I'd hand them a beer if they didn't have one.

There is no claim rule. Most of us don't want one. The powers that be don't want one. We can try our darndest to explain why we/they feel that way but you do not have to agree.

Plance1:

Please forgive me, but what are you REALLY looking for?

Are you looking to reward that little extra effort? Are you trying to level the playing field so that someone who spends $2009 buying a car and doesnt turn a wrench is competitive with someone who spends $2009 on a car and parts and puts in a ton of labor to make it work? Are you tryin to keep people from ""cheating" to win a set of tires (that is what we are playing for right?)

I am trying to understand your point? Can you help me here a little?

93celicaGT2 wrote: But then even if i value my time at what i get paid at work, even assuming i get the car for free..... i have to get it race ready within 100 hours. Get a $1000 pos, 50 hours. And so on.

Dude, Stop. Just stop already. Or are you just putting me on???? How many times do I have to write that sitting around your kitchen table trying to figure out your hourly rate as a means of addressing my point is not what I was suggesting.

If they allow for that, the "Dollar amount" (It's dollars, not hours!) has to be adjusted, and then it's no longer the GRM $200x Challenge. What it comes down to is: You're building a race car for $2000 for pete's sake. If you want to spend less than that, go for it. If you don't want to spend any time on it, fine, do that. Nobody is telling you how to build your car. The LESS time is allowed within the budget (which is essentially what you're proposing) the LESS Grassroots it becomes. Pretty strange considering the name of the sanctioning body.... This is a challenge about ingenuity. Be as lazy as you want. But don't complain about being beaten by the guy that spend 3000 hours building a car that cost EXACTLY $2009 DOLLARS.

Ah, no. It's not a contest about only "ingenuity" it also is supposed to be Grassroots in terms of cost, or so I thought. If he wanted to, a guy like the BMW driver can spend 20,000 paying his buddies to work 300 hours on car and no doubt will crush any of your efforts. Another team can spend 5000 hours and no labor dollars creating a car too. I was just trying to level the playing field. If you knew you had the constraint of having to construct a car that someone would actually buy or value at a reasonable rate, you could judge the value of your labor and decide how much you want to spend on the car, nothing at all would change except that the value of your end product would be judged by others. So if you ended up selling your $2009+labor value (however you want to value your labor) car for $50,000, or if it was judged to be valued at $50,000 as part of the judging, but get your a$$ handed to you by a guy who spends far less time in creatively buying his car initally and who uses his time more wisely and/or is a better fabricator and can get the job done in half the time as you in a car that, in total is worth far less, what is wrong with at least thinking how that can be judged? If you could pay for a mini and beat a Ferrari, wouldn't you admire the mini?

Winston wrote:

plance1 wrote:

Winston wrote: The point of the Challenge is to spend $200x and HOWEVER MUCH OF YOUR OWN LABOR YOU WANT TO to create the best car. That is all. We all know that. Nobody has their heads in the sand. And as others have said, the other point of the Challenge is to have a good time.

SVreX wrote: On second though, plance1... ...I'm not sure you are going to "get it".

He has that history... I vividly recall the Toyota Echo "debate" on the old board, where he also refused to get it. Even more ridiculous than this thread, if I recall correctly.

Holy cow, a new reader remembers a "debate" about an Echo? Seriously now, you are really reaching back, way back to an irrelevant topic, you must truly be the guy who started that thread by declaring your feelings were hurt because noone else appreciated your Toyota Echo. I merely responded thats all. Seems like your feelings are still hurt. Get over it.

New board name, thus the "New Reader" status. Not my Echo, never owned one, no hurt feelings (not sure if I even posted in that thread)... I just remember that you were a total douche then, too. So much so that every time I see "plance1" I remember that thread.

Right new member, sure. Using the logic others have used about not having the right to post a comment about the Challenge, maybe you should not comment until you have at least come close to my number of posts?? Seriously, of course I really dont mean that. But calling me a "douche"? If you can't engage in a rational discussion without name calling, then I guess you have to resort to name calling. You sound pretty intelligent.