Challenge vs LeMons

I have a stupid question.

What is cheaper to do in the long run (build, entry, trip, etc) The 20xx Challenge or a LeMons race?

I think I already know the answer.

I have an interest in building a challenge car and I asked a friend if he would be interested in helping me build one and he thinks it would be more worthwhile doing a car for a LeMons race. I however do not.

I'm not letting his ideas sway mine, I more or less want to sway his. I have the car and my money would be going into this. He's been complaining (whining) about building a car in general, so I thought he would be gung ho for this, but he obviously wants me to do something different.

I'm just curious what you guys who have done one or the other or both, think or have input on this. Pros And Cons would be helpful.

There is a crap can class at the challange so you could do both.

Another consideration is this: What would be more funner? I've never even attended a LeMons race but the atmosphere is great at the challenge. Yes there was some ugly happenings this year, but that's the exception to the rule. I don't think you could go wrong with either.

Do you plan to race once a year or multiple times per year? Do the math based on that alone and you'll have your answer...

I've done the Challenge twice with a team, LeMons 0 times. I enjoyed the challenges, but it seems attendance is dwindling, while LeMons seems to be turning people away.

No question which one is more expensive, but with more safety stuff being "free" in the challenge, and LeMons offering much, much more track time, factor in there's probably a LeMons race closer and...I'm not sure which one is the better deal.

In reply to DrBoost:

That was something else I thought about. It seems to me like maybe LeMons maybe taken too seriously. Plus I know you guys from the board here, so that's one reason right off the bat for the Challenge.

Also don't you have to "accepted" into LeMons?

We paid roughly $700 per person for the first, and most expensive, race in lemons. That's with 5 team members, everything included, including gas and towing. I can't tell you what the 200x teams budget, I haven't done that yet. Obviously Lemons gets cheaper the more you do it, not to mention the $/lap costs are ridiculously low.

Gut feeling would be challenge, but the trip could be expensive for you, due to location. Would you drive or trailer the car down?

The build itself will certainly be cheaper. Lemons cages aren't cheap.

LeMons is likely a bit more expensive, although I have only ran the Challenge. Here's my reasons for thinking this.

• LeMons requires more safety gear - fire suits, professionally built roll cage, etc. With the Challenge, you only need a cage if you've got a faster car.
• You can run more LeMons events in one year, therefor more opportunities to spend money.
• LeMons entry fee is higher.
• LeMons has a higher threat of car damage, making it crazier to run without a tow rig. Driving your car to the Challenge is less unthinkable.

Imho they are really 2 very different things... Both revolve around (relativly) cheap car builds but imho the grm challenge is more of a exercise in car building and lemons is a race that you have to build a car for...

You'll get a lot more track/race time at lemons... But u can drive the challenge car around the street... Assuming u build it as such lol...

Just my .02

I was offered a Lemons seat (1 of 4 or 5, I think) a couple of years ago by an old DH racing buddy - about $900 for one event, IIRC. He's still doing it, but I think the group he's with runs in Crap Can with an E36 now.

A couple of our auto-x region guys run Lemons cars as well. I think they have one or two that are always in some state of being repaired. It's amusing when they bring it to events to test.

I'm curious to know how much a Challenge car "really" costs... after all is said and done, I'm sure it's considerably more than $20XX...

Lemons is actually less serious, it has been described in the past as "A party where a race breaks out."

While ChumpCar is a bit more serious, it has been described in the past as "A Race where a Party breaks out."

Personally, they are two entirely different types of events. CrapCan racing is so unbelievably fun as you're actually racing wheel to wheel and you (hopefully) get enough seat time and experience to get a taste of what the Pro-endurance racers experience.

Since you're limited in budget and you know the car will get likely get hammered on the track (don't bring a car to the track unless you're prepared to write it off, many Crapcans start out as write-offs) they aren't usually pretty as most teams (rightfully so) focus more on reliability and safety.

For the Challenge, the focus is more on a good looking car that performs well.

I still remember my first stint in ChumpCar behind the wheel of the car that I helped build, it was an eye opening experience and cannot compare to any of the track days or autocross events I've ever done.

As for budgets, I can't help you with the Challenge budget too much, but the Crapcan racing entry fees can be expensive depending on the track and number of drivers and then you have the personal safety gear for the drivers, spares for the car, safety equipment for the car, maintenance items, etc. It adds up quick. The last few ChumpCar events I was interested in driving in were about $500-600/driver. That's cheap when you think of the amount of track time you'll be able to get, but it is a hue cost up front, especially if you're unsure about your car.

I have run the challenge for less than challenge budget not including gas and accomodation. Remember you can recoup 1006.00 for the budget but I recouped significantly more on parts cars for 2009.

As for lemons ask Greg Voth he has done both and run a lemons car at this years challenge.

Hongs are also very knowledble on both

Part of the difference is that we're looking for neat cars to write about--and the competition is a side benefit. Lemons/Chump is somewhat the opposite.

Per

There was actually a good thread a few months back about "true cost" to compete in the challenge. I think it was determined that if you lived somewhat far away, towed your car, ate filet mignon, drank only the finest red whine, and stayed in a Marriot, you were looking at about $5000-$6000.

I'm looking more like $3000. If you can drive your car to the event, your true out of pocket could be similar, maybe even lower if you recoup past your $1006 paperwork limit.

And i'm perfectly fine drinking cheep beer and eating burgers.

I think you are comparing apples to oranges. I would say consider Lemons or Chump if you enjoy racing. Challenge if you enjoy building.

The challenge should be cheaper, no question.

Our car is an 83 RX-7 with a 5.0 and T-5. We ran our first Lemons event pretty cheaply. The car was certainly challenge priced in ready to race form. Since the first race it has gotten larger brakes, an 8.8 Mustang rear plus wheels and tires which added to the cost. We also lost a clutch 2 hours into the last race but had it back on track about four hours later.

From here it should be cheaper as the car is mostly sorted. It needs to stiffer front springs and shocks but is otherwise pretty good. Tires, brakes, gas and travel should be the majority of the cost from here out barring an wreck or major mechanical breakdown.

Lemons is more lighthearted with the themes and penatlies. The black flags for minor infractions gets a little annoying.

Chumpcar is more race oriented. I dont believe I saw a black flag during my time out. I had a guy run off the track chasing me down. No flag.

The racing in our experience has been pretty clean. We did have a Crown Vic run out of brakes and hit us during the first race.

All that said. I enjoy the racing more than the building so I would vote for Challenge/Chump. Another of the team members likes building more than driving so we will likely keep doing both.

My LeMons car cost ~$2450 to build, including cage, harness, seat, fire extinguisher, etc. We got a cage built for apparently very low cost. The guy took his time, but he built us a robust cage for $900. From the people we talked to, we were on the cheap end of total build cost. I should clarify that we didn't have cheater parts--our car was completely legal per the rules.

With entry fees and safety gear for everyone, we're looking at about $5500 total (two of us shared a racing suit).

That does not include fuel, food, or transport to the track. Or spare parts. I don't think that includes theme or bribe material either, but that stuff was relatively cheap.

Second-event expenses are GREATLY reduced, because everyone already has $500 worth of racing gear and you already have a car with a roll cage. From then on it's repairs, upgrades, consumables, and transport to the event.

You can buy arrive-and-drive seat time with an established LeMons team for less than $300 sometimes.

Even with an engine swap barely into Day 1, we got more than 9 hours of seat time. Everyone was super supportive at the event, lending us tools, hoists, beer, award-winning chili (literally), and moral support throughout.

Interesting information.

the only think that I'll add, since it's always brought up as an issue for a few challenge cars is resale price.

I might be seeing used Chumpcar or LeMons cars wrong, but they don't seem to be in great shape post race, and probably won't return much in re-sale (most money looks to be gained by selling seat time).

on the other hand, an really well done challenge car can make a bunch of dough. I'd be willing to bet that the V8 Miatas could sell for over $6k. I should have finished my former car right, and sold it for $4k. All in all, a good challege car should come close to paying for the entire adventure when you are done. IMHO.

mm. I guess it boils down to, do you want to race? or build? If it is race then buy a used lemons/chumpcar or buy a seat and git racing. If you want to build and live reasonably close the GRM HQ go for the Challenge

alfadriver wrote: on the other hand, an really well done challenge car can make a bunch of dough. I'd be willing to bet that the V8 Miatas could sell for over $6k. I *should* have finished my former car right, and sold it for $4k. All in all, a good challege car should come close to paying for the entire adventure when you are done. IMHO.

IMHO, that depends heavily on the car and what you can do with it post-Challenge. One reason I balk at building a Challenge car is what else to do with it. I've got street cars coming out of my ears - don't need another one. So if I build a car that needs a trailer, I'd want to build it for a specific racing class; auto-x or whatever. Right now, I'm intrigued with the idea of building a Challenge-priced B-Mod car.

In reply to Ian F:

Absolutely. But I do read it as a potental source of cash, which may change the balance of money, that's all.

Wheel's yellow car is built for no class specific, but I'd be willing to bet he could get $10k for it.

We build right and on budget. Doing the Challenge has taught us how to build on a budget. Total car cost for the lemons car was $350, recoup was near $300 on scrap, and parts sold. We bent and welded our own cages. The first one was a S&W Racing cage $300 delivered. The big cost for me was safety gear, entrance fees, and gas. We went through 110 gallons of premium gas at $3.85 a gallon, plus diesel to get us there. Lemon's is a driving event, so no shooters! The Challenge is a social builders event, so shooters! At the end of Lemon’s I had a beat up, broke racecar. At the end of the Challenge I had a beautiful car, that I proudly built. You choose.

I want to build a car. I am not a racer (though I always have wanted to be ). My buddy wants to be a racer and wants to get experience behind the wheel.

Like I said, I know what I want to do and I'm pretty much on my own for this.

My buddy is pretty much one of those people that if there isn't anything in it for him, he's not interested.

I've been to the challenge 3x, driven in 3 Lemons races, and judged 2 lemons races. We even ran both Lemons and the Challenge (and BABE Rally) in the same car.

The similarities are: Good people, and inexpensive cars with a good level of innovation. That's it.

They are very different events, which has been discussed well in the earlier posts. Personally, I like to drive, and building is a means to an end, but is still fun. Most of my team is the same way. This year we ran Lemons only, no challenge, where the year before we did both. For us, the Challenge is a long ass tow for two days of hanging out. The people and cars are amazing, but it is a long drive.

For Lemons, you get most of the same kind of people, (most) everyone there to have a great time and play with cars. Enjoy the spectacle, don't take yourself too seriously, and have fun.

The builds are quite different, as for Lemons you don't need to make it pretty, just make it work. For the Challenge, you have to think "make it pretty" basically all the time, as they need something that will show well in the magazine.

I think you will have fun with both, and your friend more fun with Lemons. You can go crazy with the build and make a hell of a car, and then get to play racer. He can help with the build, and then get what he wants out of it when he is on the track. Hopefully you will find some others locally to help, too, as it is hard to do on your own.

I've done 4 lemons races and 1 chump race. One thing they have in common: I've never seen any debauchery approaching what I read about at the challenge. It may be that it is isolated at a race track, and not in the public eye. Also, both series are mostly populated by road racers, so the demographic may be different. Chump was much more laid back than any LeMons race I've done.

It's apples to oranges. Challenge is more of a showcase of skill, where LeMons requires you to try to hide or distract attention from your handiwork.

There is no substitute for wheel to wheel competition, though.