Cheap Audi B5 A4 for Rallycross?

With all the Rally cross schedules popping up , cabin fever  has set in up here in frigid Cleveland  and has me thinking a sub $1000 A4  quattro is a bargain offroader?!  I googled and havent seen to many examples at all, not sure if thats a bad sign? I was thinking the V6 version. Now I've owned a couple 1.8  examples when they were newer and know all their quirks. Does anyone know how durable they are in the dirt?  Will the front end need new control arms after every pass

Heavy and slow, and AWD is boring.

Rear shock mounts rust out and are about 1000/side. 

"Cheap Audi"? Aren't those the really expensive ones?

Knurled. said:

Heavy and slow, and AWD is boring.

 

Rear shock mounts rust out and are about 1000/side. 

fully gutted/ quattro, still slow and boring? I wouldnt buy a rusty one.

This guy is making it work.  He is the only one I know of.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MaS0Id6ipj4

Talk to Warren Elliot from NER scca. He was fast in 'the terminator' before he saw the light and went to an Evo.

for a fun, cheap car to beat on i think it'd a decent option. i had a '98 turbo, with just a tune, cone filter, cat delete, and a exhaust cutout right about under the passenger seat it was alot of fun, i wouldnt say fast but it was quick for what it was. The suspension isnt weak, but the problem is when it does wear out it has 4 seperate control arms at each corner, but FCP Euro sells kits with all the control arms for pretty cheap compared to most other places. We took to out regularly to an empty field at my buddies farm and it was a blast to throw around in the mud/dirt.

This was a regular look of it during college, turned a lot of heads on campus.

In reply to cghstang :

Warren was fast despite it, not because of it, i think.

If starting from nothing, there are much better options.

https://cleveland.craigslist.org/cto/d/1985-toyota-supra-priced-to/6464453652.html

Now that i have time to write a full post.

No need to worry abut rust.  The B5s have awesome rust protection.  The subframes and aforementioned rear shocks mount/upper control arm brackets do rot with regularity, but those are bolt on parts so who cares.

I think the hoo-ha over the front suspension is way overblown.  I have had a lot of customers with them with over 200k on the front end parts with no problems.  For certain if you do replace them with cheap junk and/or tighten the bushings down with the suspension drooped, they will die a quick death.

The biggest problem is the chassis just suuuuuck. The wheelbase is too long and there's that SBC weight lump of iron in the nose, which is great for cruising at 200 klick on the Autobahn but horrid for trying to change direction rapidly.  And if you manhandle the car, you find the next and most glaring problem, the diffs.  Audi built the cars to be complacent for ultrasmooth roads so the stock Torsens are just peachy.  Try to force the car around on rough surface and it gets unpredictable and maddening.  To that end, i would NOT lighten the car unless the suspension was also put on a diet.  Aluminum uprights from an A8 might fit and would drop a ton of unsprung weight.

The multi arm suspension does make we want to play around with geometry a lot.  Probably could get a lot more antidive and pro squat on the front with little effort.  But the diffs!  Maybe you could swap in a 01E trans, which has clutch front and center diffs available.  At this point you are starting to approach used STI/Evo money (the diffs alone run $1500-2k each) which is the far easier button and comes as a proven one stop shopping experience.

And you'll still get your butt handed to you by someone in a ten year old wagon...

So buy whatever, run whatever, have fun, but i wouldn't expect something like that to ge very competitive, which the mindset i approach all car purchases from...

B5 Audi + sawzall = Win

cghstang said:

Talk to Warren Elliot from NER scca. He was fast in 'the terminator' before he saw the light and went to an Evo.

And if you know anything about Warren, the Terminator probably cost more than a new WRX by the time he was done with it, I"m guessing.

If you want to lose to a lot of subarus, and/or break down before you get a chance to lose, and/or have cash for new parts burning a hole in your pocket, an old cheap Audi is the way to go.

If you are looking for a $1000 car for rallycross, however,  I could think of a dozen cars that would be more competitive in their class and be more reliable than an old Audi.

I've had a number of friends with B5/B5.5 chassis VAGwagons, and while the purchase price might have been low in most cases, none of them were cheap. No thanks.

Sub $1000 running/driving AWD 200hp-ish alternatives? I seached for a Subaru and every cheap one needs a head gasket fix. I did find a $1500 automatic early WRX, but i dont know subies well. Definitely need to talk to Warren. 

fanfoy said:

B5 Audi + sawzall = Win

'super chicken' just ask Kevin G and C392 about having to look at it's arse end....

Many moons ago, I had a 98 A4 2.8 Quattro.  It was a great highway cruiser and served beautifully as a DD back and forth to class/work.  I seldom drove it rough on the street, but it was planted and for AWD, it seemed pretty predictable.  My wife did manage to spin it out on an off ramp in wet  conditions tho "by accident."  I got rear ended pretty hard by a 5.0 mustang and it only suffered scratches.  It also kept up with said 5.0 as it attempted to flee the scene long enough to read the tag.  All in all, it was a tough car, but I wouldn't make a dedicated racer out of one.

westsidetalon said:

Sub $1000 running/driving AWD 200hp-ish alternatives? I seached for a Subaru and every cheap one needs a head gasket fix. I did find a $1500 automatic early WRX, but i dont know subies well. Definitely need to talk to Warren. 

Head gaskets are silly easy on EJ25s.  Engine comes out with no effort, it's a timing belt engine so pulling the head isn't a nightmare, and it's MLS gaskets so cleanup is a breeze.

I have seen a lot of oil pan leaks misdiagnosed as head gaskets.  You can technically R&R the pan in chassis, but it is easy enough to pull the engine out.  Plus, the easy way to deal with the dipstick tube involves having the inner timing cover off.

I personally would not bother with a WRX, a 2.5RS is a much easier car to drive, and faster too on a tight course.  If you are rallycrossing in Ohio, you will be on tight courses unless a miracle happens and we get National Trail back.

Further research reveals a V6 a4 placed 3rd at the Nationals last year with seemingly little mods!? 

westsidetalon said:

Sub $1000 running/driving AWD 200hp-ish alternatives? I seached for a Subaru and every cheap one needs a head gasket fix. I did find a $1500 automatic early WRX, but i dont know subies well. Definitely need to talk to Warren. 

why do you need 200hp-ish? The dominant car in most local/regional rallycross AWD class is the 2.5RS, which is what....150hp if the engine is actually healthy? 2WD is dominated by 100hp Miatas (and my 130hp e30 has done very well for years). Are you dead-set on AWD class?

Warren's shocks by themselves cost more than $1000.....he is a great driver and car-builder, but I highly doubt that he's going to be much help to you if you're on strict budget. Because he is not. lol

In reply to westsidetalon :

I wasn't able to make it out in 2017, but it sure did look like a shakeup.  Traditionally, if an Evo was entered in a class, the Evo won.  Zero Evos won anything this year.

From what I understand, it was a total mudbath with horrible conditions.  When this happens, your placement depends almost as much on run order as it does driver skill and car prep.  That said, driver skill or rather driver temperament is extremely important when conditions get crappy.  You need the right balance of aggression and temper in order to navigate a course quickly without overdriving.  A lot of good drivers will get overaggressive and lose time, or play it too safe and lose time.  Nationals can be frustrating because you may only get one or two runs per course.

Of course, the year I didn't go, was the last year I had the S40.  I was doing very well in 2016 with the wrong tires entirely, until the conditions dried out.  (Sort of like 2013 in the 2.5RS... or 2015 in a different 2.5RS)  I have AWESOME mud tires now, and had set up the S40 to be quite a ride.  Oh well, that ship's sailed.

westsidetalon said:

Sub $1000 running/driving AWD 200hp-ish alternatives? I seached for a Subaru and every cheap one needs a head gasket fix. I did find a $1500 automatic early WRX, but i dont know subies well. Definitely need to talk to Warren. 

nationals is an ok guideline, but keep in mind that a LOT of the best drivers don't even go, due to distance (though some of the best certainly do). So you have to look and see "who did that guy beat, and was it because of the car, or because he is a great driver). I've seen STI's lose to 25-year old Volvos and Focus ST's lose to 20-year old Civics. Rallycross is about driving, not as much the car - provided the car is RELIABLE. Because you can't win if you can't finish.

Look at local and regional and divisional results for a larger body of work. There will always be outliers, but if $1000 A4s were actually any good, you would see a ton of them out there. Which is not the case at all. In 6 years rallycrossing all over this side of the country  I think I've seen ONE A4 run regularly, and it's not very close to stock ad I think eventually got sold to buy something else. 

If you have a -low budget like $1000 for a rallycross car, your best option is go go to any of the 2WD classes, where $1000 can actually buy you a reasonably competitive car if you look hard enough. Just my two cents.

irish44j said:Rallycross is about driving, not as much the car - provided the car is RELIABLE. Because you can't win if you can't finish.

Er, I've won regionals with three DNSs.  You just have to be REALLY, REALLY FAST.

I also won the GLDiv championship in 2015 after being unable to finish all my runs in the car I entered.  Bee Thao was kind enough to let me make my final run in his car.  Note:  If I didn't make a final run, HE would have won.  Class act, right there.  I'm forever grateful to his awesomeness.  (Also, Evan for letting me beat the hell out of his Miata and cord his tires in the process.  And it's not the first time he let me drive his Miata after I broke my car)

f you have a -low budget like $1000 for a rallycross car, your best option is go go to any of the 2WD classes, where $1000 can actually buy you a reasonably competitive car if you look hard enough. Just my two cents.

If he is from where I think he is from, meaning from here (video of LS-powered RX-7 doing a rolling burnout on I-480?), pretty much anything you can find for under a grand is a E36 M3pile that hasn't been scrapped yet, or stolen.  Anything reliable that passes emissions is worth at least $1800 even if it's all rusted out.

Hence my "if you look hard enough" - i.e. look out of the area to someplace where decent cars are cheaper, and then do a road trip.

One of our locals just spent under $2k on his new rallycross car - an e36 318ti with an M52 swap - by driving down to Georgia to get it. Because an M52-swapped Ti in this area goes for double that, easy.

In reply to irish44j :

You're talking to someone who drove something like 1300 miles round trip to pick up a dented and wrecked RX-7.

Hmm, twice actually - the black car was a wreck when I bought it.

Knurled. said:

In reply to irish44j :

You're talking to someone who drove something like 1300 miles round trip to pick up a dented and wrecked RX-7.

 

Hmm, twice actually - the black car was a wreck when I bought it.

you probably paid him in quarters, too ;)