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Gearheadotaku
Gearheadotaku GRM+ Memberand SuperDork
5/15/12 10:51 p.m.

Another factor in the volume argument would be how lone a platform can be used before a redesign. How long did the Fox chassis get used for? The Camaro/ Firebird were 10 years a platform, Vettes even longer. Most of the small sportscars are the "halo" cars. How many Cavaliers, Foci, and Corollas have to be sold to support them?

It was mentioned that people carry too much stuff in their cars, I agree. It's not a storage locker people! I also love it when someone has a child and "must" run out and get a mini-van. Yeah, they are handy, but people got by with sedans and wagons for many, many years before the Caravan came along.

It's late, someones on my lawn....

Vigo
Vigo SuperDork
5/15/12 11:03 p.m.

The sales number for 1997 corvettes is baffling to me. That year represents the single biggest year to year improvement in the vette in it's entire history, imo, so it's weird to see that the market didnt like it. Unless it was only a partial sales year due to a late release or something.

Brett_Murphy
Brett_Murphy GRM+ Memberand Dork
5/15/12 11:24 p.m.

As others have said, a Camry or an Accord meets the needs of most of the US market buyers, and it fits their driving style. It handles well enough to get out of its own way, can carry a family and their stuff fairy well and won't scare anybody when it merges onto a highway. Look at what the Minivan did to the Porsche in the GRM article. Modern cars are high speed, reliable juggernauts compared to offerings from 40 years ago. What was thrilling and felt fast in an old sports car with drum brakes and squeaks and rattles from the factory can be done in air conditioned comfort in a Camcord today. The exceptional of yesteryear is the routine benchmark of today, and the vast majority of the drivers on the road don't want to stray outside of that comfort zone.

Success also breeds more success; high volume selling cars will tend to attract more buyers because they are a known quantity. Take a Camry into any service station and they'll work on it. Take an RX-8 into the same shop with a weird hesitation problem and the mechanics are going to flap their arms, scream "low compression" and tell you to take it to the dealer to have a new engine put in.

Add into that that quite a few people buy cars for image vs. actual use. How many BMW M3s make it to the track until they fall down into the used market and get bought by an enthusiast? How may Corvettes ever see track time? The same thing can apply to pickup trucks and Jeeps; I've seen lifted rigs advertised as "never having been off-road" and while some people are just lying liars, I'm betting there are a fair number of redneck yachts that might drive down a dirt road now and again but have never been rock climbing or mudding.

As noted above, given the way the vast majority of the people drive, their comfort levels and the fact that a beige sedan can meet all of their needs and make them feel safe, I don't think there is a large market for sports cars. In today's market, every new model released simply steals sales from the existing cars in the market. Granted, that is just an opinion, and I don't have any hard data to back it up, but I don't know of many people who cross shop a Camry and a Corvette or a Boxster. No, the person who is cross shopping a Corvette might look at a Viper and a 911 and pick between them. Likewise, if you move downmarket, somebody buying a BRZ might look at a Mustang and a Genesis Coupe and choose between them. The sports car isn't going to steal that Camry's sale.

I recently bought a new car for my wife. She was driving a Jeep Liberty (which I hated and she was ambivalent about) and we got a Mazda6. She liked the way the Mazda handled and braked versus some of the other sedans, but we never even considered a Mustang or other sporty cars because two doors just won't work when you have to help a kid in and out of a child seat 4-12 times a day. Other cars that might have been sportier were way out of our price range. Before the Jeep we had a Mazda3 and that worked great until we had to slide a rear facing child seat behind the driver's side, at which point the ergonomics made it impossible for me to drive without chewing on the steering wheel. We wound up with a sedan because it is the ultimate compromise vehicle. It does enough things well enough to have been the staple of the US highway since the post WWII era and maybe even before that.

Granted, I'm looking at sticky rubber and maybe some performance springs for ours, to maybe spice it up a bit. All that says is that we're not the average family, and we still wound up with a sedan.

Javelin
Javelin GRM+ Memberand UltimaDork
5/15/12 11:36 p.m.
Vigo wrote: The sales number for 1997 corvettes is baffling to me. That year represents the single biggest year to year improvement in the vette in it's entire history, imo, so it's weird to see that the market didnt like it. Unless it was only a partial sales year due to a late release or something.

Your last line is bingo-bango. The 97 Vette was late out of the gate and with low production. There was quite the waiting list for it.

DaewooOfDeath
DaewooOfDeath Dork
5/16/12 12:28 a.m.

I am a big fan of sports cars. I've owned a Supra, a 300zx and a Talon. However, I don't think I'm in the market for another because I've learned that a sedan or hatch with hardcore sauce sprinkled on top offers the same experience with cheaper insurance and enough back seat/trunk to stuff my friends and their crap into the back when I go on road trips.

Trans_Maro
Trans_Maro SuperDork
5/16/12 12:29 a.m.

Almost as good as the 1983 corvettes sales numbers.

ShadowSix
ShadowSix Reader
5/16/12 8:44 a.m.
kreb wrote: It's all about emotions and rationalizations. If you put two unusable seats into a sports car it becomes more "usefull" If you spend $40,000 on a truck and never put anything in the back, it isn't seen as frivolous because it's "usefull" All three vehicles are functionally two-seaters, but only the sports-car driver's a narcicist

This.

If everyone bought cars based almost entirely on practicality (as many here suggest) then I think almost everybody would be driving diesel wagons and hatches of varying sizes.

93EXCivic
93EXCivic UltimaDork
5/16/12 8:47 a.m.
ShadowSix wrote: If everyone bought cars based almost entirely on practicality (as many here suggest) then I think almost everybody would be driving diesel wagons and hatches of varying sizes.

What's wrong with diesel wagons?!?!

snap_understeer
snap_understeer Reader
5/16/12 8:49 a.m.
92CelicaHalfTrac wrote:
MG Bryan wrote:
93EXCivic wrote: I don't understand why sports cars don't sell. I mean no one wakes up in the morning dreaming of owning a Camry.
To most people, cars are not far removed from a toaster or dishwasher.
This. I don't want a Ferrari Toaster. (Ok well... i do, kindof. But it won't make my morning toast that much better.)

No, Here's how you should make your toast:

ShadowSix
ShadowSix Reader
5/16/12 9:07 a.m.
93EXCivic wrote:
ShadowSix wrote: If everyone bought cars based almost entirely on practicality (as many here suggest) then I think almost everybody would be driving diesel wagons and hatches of varying sizes.
What's wrong with diesel wagons?!?!

Nothing, I WISH I could get a non-VAG diesel wagon as my DD. I rented a Nissan Primera diesel wagon when I lived in Germany, it was awesome! And I don't remember exactly, but it got mileage that would put any gasser short of a Prius or Insight to shame. I loved that car, there was also an Opel diesel wagon that I rented, but I think it was a bit downmarket, not nearly as nice inside or generally comfortable as the Primera.

I'm just saying that the assertion that Americans buy cars based primarily on practical concerns is nonsense. This is not how real people work.

EDIT: It's not clear from the photo, this thing is huge, the amount of army gear I carted around while burning Honda Fit-amounts of fuel was unreal. Manual transmission too.

Curmudgeon
Curmudgeon MegaDork
5/16/12 9:33 a.m.
alfadriver wrote:
Curmudgeon wrote: 'Cheap sports cars don't sell.' Huh. Coulda fooled me. Going up to 1980: Over 18 years, MG sold over half a million B's, Triumph over 300,000 Spitfires. Austin sold almost 305,000 Sprites. Fiat sold 200,000 124 Spiders and 160,000 X 1/9's. That's ~1.5 million cars, or an average of nearly 84,000 yearly. Sure, that's a drop in the bucket compared to regular old passenger car production but it's nothing to sniff at. We haven't added in the Z car numbers yet. Or the TR6/7. Or the 79-80 RX7 (I wouldn't include the 3rd gen, which was a helluva car but couldn't be considered cheap). The Jensen Healey was on the pricey side of inexpensive in the 1970s ($8k in the US) and still sold over 10k in 4 years, which given their sales growth each year could have surpassed the Spitfire's numbers had production continued (Jensen had orders backed up like crazy but ran out of money). Sports cars got bigger and heavier in the '80's (280ZX, Supra, etc) and that certainly had something to do wth the drop in sales. In 1989, Mazda tapped into that pent up demand for a true sports car and the result is automotive history. The Miata still sells well, otherwise Mazda would have quit with it. FWIW, I don't consider the FWD Celicas to be sports cars, just gussied up transport (ducks bullets, rocks & bottles from Celica faithful).
They may sell, but if you want to actually make money, which is the entire point of capitalism, you need to make money- enough for your investors. of the car makers you listed, how many are still around? Fiat doesn't do much in terms of sports cars anymore, Nissan got bought out by Renault, Mazda was bought and sold by Ford. This isn't a charity, it's business.

No kidding. But if we apply your reasoning, then your employer should not produce Boss Mustangs or even 305 HP V6 Mustangs which grenade driveshafts if you bypass the speed governor. I guarantee you neither of those is considered a 'high volume' vehicle.

MG was part of Austin. Triumph was part of Standard-Triumph. Both were absorbed into British Leyland. So the numbers produced were a fraction of the overall company's production but they still made enough income to keep them going long after they should have been put out to pasture. The platforms had long since repaid their tooling and development costs; I mean, the 1980 Spitfire still used the same basic Herald chassis which itself was an offshoot of the 1948 Mayflower! B-L died not over sports cars but over many other issues. (NINJA EDIT: My bad, it was the TR2 that shared some Mayflower stuff. The Herald was an all new design produced in the mid 50's. Still, the tooling had long since paid for itself.)

Fiat is still around (duh). They have no cheap sports cars with the Fiat name on them, but let's not forget Alfa Romeo and Ferrari. No, those aren't cheap sports cars. And they keep muttering about bringing Alfa back to the States. Okay, okay: they aren't bringing the Graduate back, but still.

Nissan still produces the 370Z and its Infiniti sister/brother/whatever. To me that car doesn't fall in the 'cheap' range but it obviously makes them enough dinero to keep producing.

Mazda was 33.4% owned by Ford at one point. (As a Mazda service manager back then, I can tell you first hand the CD4E transmissions supplied by the F side of the equation to put in 626's damn near put Mazda out of business. There was a rumor going around that Mazda was suing Ford over that, I dunno how far it went.) I do know that Mazda basically bought out most of Ford's stake (Ford still owns some of the company but not much, it seems to be 3.5%) and that right up till the end Ford was using the Mazda CAFE figures to help their CAFE numbers look better. That included using the Miata's numbers to help 'balance out' Mustangs.

I think a lot of the problem is that FWD platforms do not lend themselves well to creating a sports car. Sure, you can build a convertible but a true sports car? Naw. The whole planet has jumped on the FWD bandwagon (with a few notable exceptions such as BMW and Mercedes, that's the only thing I give them props for) and that as much as anything explains the dearth of cheap sports cars. As Keith pointed out, Mazda doesn't share the Miata's RWD platform with anything else (since the RX8 croaked). Too bad; I think a slightly stretched Miata platform with 4 seats and a tintop would make for a cool little sports sedan. (Mazda, if you are listening/reading PM me for my address for royalty checks. )

Knurled
Knurled GRM+ Memberand Dork
5/16/12 12:04 p.m.
HiTempguy wrote: Who the hell actually BUYS a sedan Fiesta? What a useless vehicle!

Friend of mine has one and is very happy with it. It has a trunk and gets 39mpg combined. He even feels that it's not significantly slower than his ZX2.

ShadowSix
ShadowSix Reader
5/16/12 12:12 p.m.
Knurled wrote:
HiTempguy wrote: Who the hell actually BUYS a sedan Fiesta? What a useless vehicle!
Friend of mine has one and is very happy with it. It has a trunk and gets 39mpg combined. He even feels that it's not significantly slower than his ZX2.

The Fiesta sedan does start $900 cheaper than the hatch.

Of course, the Mazda3 sedan is over 4 grand cheaper than the hatch.

tuna55
tuna55 UltraDork
5/16/12 12:12 p.m.
Knurled wrote:
HiTempguy wrote: Who the hell actually BUYS a sedan Fiesta? What a useless vehicle!
Friend of mine has one and is very happy with it. It has a trunk and gets 39mpg combined. He even feels that it's not significantly slower than his ZX2.

I thought this was crazy, but upon inspection, the ZX2 non S/R was around 16.0 1/4 mile and the Fiesta is 16.8, slower yes, but in the same ballpark - impressive, I'd say

Grizz
Grizz Dork
5/16/12 1:17 p.m.

I look at it like this, if the company in question makes a more practical car that is either close enough or better performance, why buy the sports car that will be a pain in the ass to live with?

I honestly don't plan on owning a sports car, and I'm not even sure about 2 door cars, unless the back seat is actually useable for normal people.

I'm not exactly the buying public, in that I actually factor in practicality when looking at vehicles. My BIL got into an accident and his Galant got totaled, when they were looking at cars I suggested any number of cars designed specifically for eating up the highway miles of his commute and they ignored me and bought a Journey. Now it was claimed that it was bought because it was big enough to carry the kids and their E36 M3, but that's just prevaricating bullE36 M3 on the part of my sister. She wanted a Journey a few years back, but decided that it wasn't roomy enough and had to settle with a minivan for the space. Why, I don't know, seeing as she only had one kid at the time(I think). Most of the crap in the van is either hers or stuff you don't need to cart around all the damn time.

HiTempguy
HiTempguy SuperDork
5/16/12 3:19 p.m.
Knurled wrote: Friend of mine has one and is very happy with it. It has a trunk and gets 39mpg combined. He even feels that it's not significantly slower than his ZX2.

Sure, but there is not a single advantage a sedan has over a hatch. EXCEPT MAYBE looks, which a blob with the rear chopped off is still a blob with the rear chopped off.

ShadowSix
ShadowSix Reader
5/16/12 3:25 p.m.
HiTempguy wrote:
Knurled wrote: Friend of mine has one and is very happy with it. It has a trunk and gets 39mpg combined. He even feels that it's not significantly slower than his ZX2.
Sure, but there is not a single advantage a sedan has over a hatch. EXCEPT MAYBE looks, which a blob with the rear chopped off is still a blob with the rear chopped off.

I just told you an advantage. It is cheaper.

sanman
sanman Reader
5/16/12 3:32 p.m.

Affordable sports cars need to walk a fine line. Become to mainstream and they stop being sports cars and end up competing with sporty cars instead (eclipse, civic, celica, integra, gti) that cost less than real sports cars for most of the trills. However, the truth is that most average sedans can be turned into competent corner carvers with a few suspension and wheel/tire upgrades and be found for thousands less than sports cars both on the new or used market. Go too far and make the car too much of a compromise for the every day driver and it can tank as well(rx8). Not mention that those keeping sports cars as second cars tend to buy used. Reliability, insurance, mpg, and other real world concerns need to be factored in as well. Most of my car guy friends can't afford new sports cars and we are all single and in our late 20s and New York insurance and commuting kills us either way. We have a kia koup, a few rsx and civic si's, mustangs, and more than a few wrx's, and I plan to keep my inherited (and free) Camry for the horrible NY commute and buy a used NC miata to go along side it (because it is different enough to be worth the money). While all these cars are great, the only new thing that would have been for me was the veloster had it handled like a miata (or mazda2). The 86/brz is great and I will likely have one when prices come down or they are on the used market. However, I highly doubt it would make me happy commuting everyday in NYC traffic enough to invest in it as an only car when I can have two reliable used cars for less money.

93EXCivic
93EXCivic UltimaDork
5/16/12 3:38 p.m.

I don't understand how a sports car is impractical (if you don't have a family). What do you people carry?

ShadowSix
ShadowSix Reader
5/16/12 3:55 p.m.

Hell, even if you've got a couple kids... The SO drives the wagon/minivan/SUV and you get a Miata or FRS. Rent/borrow a pickup for the four times a year you actually need one. If you get the FR-S you can still cram the kids in the back in an emergency.

If you're single and your only car is a two seater you almost never end up having to DD. That is practical as E36 M3.

pilotbraden
pilotbraden Dork
5/16/12 3:58 p.m.
93EXCivic wrote: I don't understand how a sports car is impractical (if you don't have a family). What do you people carry?

I agree. When I was born,1967, Dad had a Corvette and Mom had the big family car, a 1968 Firebird. The Corvette was a convertible and I rode on the shelf behind the seats. When my brother came along Dad had to get a bigger car, a 1970 1/2 Trans Am. We had 2 small Pontiacs until 1974, they were great family cars from a kids point of view. I think that my RX-8 would be a good family car, but I am a wierdo.

HiTempguy
HiTempguy SuperDork
5/16/12 4:00 p.m.
ShadowSix wrote: I just told you an advantage. It is cheaper.

No it isn't. Ford sells it to you at a lower price. If there was NO sedan offered, I bet the hatches price could be dropped. The hatch can not possibly cost $900 more to make than a sedan.

Knurled
Knurled GRM+ Memberand Dork
5/16/12 4:37 p.m.
tuna55 wrote:
Knurled wrote:
HiTempguy wrote: Who the hell actually BUYS a sedan Fiesta? What a useless vehicle!
Friend of mine has one and is very happy with it. It has a trunk and gets 39mpg combined. He even feels that it's not significantly slower than his ZX2.
I thought this was crazy, but upon inspection, the ZX2 non S/R was around 16.0 1/4 mile and the Fiesta is 16.8, slower yes, but in the same ballpark - impressive, I'd say

Indeed. They're surprising for a 1.6 that is basically the size of the original Focus.

FWIW - he has the stir-stick Fiesta, and his ZX2 was a 2003 model with leather and full power everything. He drives a lot so fuel economy is important, and trunks are more secure than hatches.

Otto Maddox
Otto Maddox SuperDork
5/16/12 4:45 p.m.
93EXCivic wrote: I don't understand how a sports car is impractical (if you don't have a family). What do you people carry?

Last week, one day I took a bunch of crap to Goodwill. It wouldn't fit in my car, so I used the wife's Pilot. Another day last week, I bought some 4X8 sheets of plywood. Same thing. And another day last week, I brought home a bunch of mulch for the yard. Same deal. I seem to buy something huge every month or two - a dryer, a TV, a bookshelf. Basically the crap associated with being a homeowner seems to be constantly coming and going.

And I do have a family, so I need a four door car to haul two young people in the back of my car five days a week.

When I was in college I could fit all my stuff (other than my furniture) into the hatch of my Scirocco, later my RX-7, and even later a 260Z. But college kids don't typically buy new sports cars.

Giant Purple Snorklewacker
Giant Purple Snorklewacker UltimaDork
5/16/12 4:57 p.m.
93EXCivic wrote: I don't understand how a sports car is impractical (if you don't have a family). What do you people carry?

A sports car is a huge step up in space from a tank bag.

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