Cheap tow-pigs: Ford vs. GM

This thread is a wealth of knowledge. I'm vaguely considering picking up a yank truck to import to NZ for boat/THOW towing (3500kg/7700lb max here without a special license). Thinking about it, I guess I don't NEED a truck, an SUV would probably do fine as well. If I was buying locally I'd be paying way too much for a diesel land cruiser (like what m1sandman bought, or older, but not gasoline, and not US-branded). I wanted/want diesel because it's half the price per gallon here (tax by distance on diesel), and the sub-idle torque is impossible to beat with gasoline engines. V10 is attractive just by what it is, but it'd bankrupt me if I wanted to tow somewhere far from home! Dually attracts me for more footprint when launching from sand, and more ability to handle a heavy/stable tongue weight. So thanks to all who've contributed! Great info :-)

Pete Gossett said:

In reply to Jaynen :

Thanks! That's good data to have. While any of those should handle anything I'm likely to need, the 3/4-ton suburban is pretty amazing to have more towing capacity and better mileage than the Excursion. 

The 2500 burban sort of splits the difference its about 12 with the 6.0 and 10 with the 8.1 given that the 1500 burban still does up to 8k+. Pure tow vehicle I would go 3/4ton burban all the way because they will all get about 8-10 towing anyway. The more non towing driving I do the more I would lean towards the half ton burban for all around or if I could find a good deal on one maybe the 7.3 excursion. But it would also depend on the gas price differences in your area. In california often diesel was cheaper than gas at least part of the year here in NC diesel averages about 20 cents more a gallon so approx 10% so you'd need more than 10% fuel economy improvement to really make it worth it

In reply to Jaynen :

I won't be driving enough miles for diesel to save me, especially not once I factor in any potential repairs. Plus I just don't have much exposure to diesels, and I'm not sure I want to deal with the learning-curve right now. 

I don't really have any brand loyalty, but I am sort of leaning toward a GM just because of all the time I've spent on this damn Vette.

ultraclyde said:

In reply to curtis73 :

Just out of curiosity, how was the 4.6L F150 for towing? They sure are getting cheap around here compared to the other trucks...

I actually prefer the 4.6L in some ways.  In my experience (owned two 4.6L and one 5.4L) they are just bulletproof.  Neither the 5.4 or 4.6 will win any races, but I judge a towing motor by whether or not I can reach the top of the mountain at a decent speed without being a danger or hindrance to traffic.  For me, a V6 is usually enough.

So if you're not worried about over-doing torque like most tow rigs try to do, I choose the 4.6L.  Its strange because its basically the same motor, but the 5.4L ... I just don't find them to be as bulletproof.  That is highly subjective information.  I used to tow 6k with a 4.6L and it was more than adequate for me.

Its the same reason I don't really like the Ford V10 - its a 5.4L with two more cylinders on it.  10 coils instead of 8, worse MPG, more headache for more torque that I don't really need.

(he says as he shops for a Duramax)

Pete Gossett said:

In reply to Jaynen :

I won't be driving enough miles for diesel to save me, especially not once I factor in any potential repairs. Plus I just don't have much exposure to diesels, and I'm not sure I want to deal with the learning-curve right now. 

I don't really have any brand loyalty, but I am sort of leaning toward a GM just because of all the time I've spent on this damn Vette.

If you choose wisely, diesel will always save you money, even with repairs.  In fact, if you choose wisely you won't have any repairs.  I've had three 7.3L, two Dmax, and one 5.9L Cummins.  The first Dmax I had was an 04 so I had to pony up for injectors (I was outside the warranty) but it wasn't too bad.  Otherwise they were all repair-free except for maintenance.

The longevity, MPG, and resale of a diesel is where you save big coin.  I found the learning curve to be the opposite.  Diesels are easier.  No ignition system.  It was like I had to know less to own a diesel.

But... in your price range, diesel is mostly out.  Below $6k you are usually buying an engine that will last forever in a truck that has already lived 3 lives and should have been buried years ago.

akylekoz said:

 

In the last 70k miles I have not experienced any heat or AC problems, maybe it's the tow package and dual heat and AC that is different on mine.   

 

These were 15-pass vans with dual A/C. 

Hit GovDeals.com and look around.

I scored this a couple of weeks ago for $620 CAD. No AC but 6.0L and the 4L80E

I'm not sure that you got answers to some of your questions:

• DOD only came on 5.3L LS engines.
• It started in 2003 in pickups. I'm not sure when it was phased ino Burbs, Avalanches and Tahoes
• Never was on 4.8L or 6.0L LS

In reply to curtis73 :

I actually found some cheap early 7.3 Powerstroke F250s earlier, priced from $1700-$4k. The $1700 one had new tires & supposedly was mechanically sound, but cosmetically pretty rough. The $4k one looked nice, with a maintenance history & also new tires. It's a bit more than I'm ready to spend right now though. 

In reply to NGTD :

Ooh, I forgot about that site - thanks!

So, what would you guys think about a 96 F250 extended cab, 7.3 Powerstroke, 2wd, automatic, with 260k and new tires/brakes/batteries/serpentine belt/alternator/tensioner pulley/RF spindle, but with a generally dirty/worn interior and inop a/c, for $1700?

I would say that is likely a good deal. Maybe spend a couple hundred on a PPO for piece of mind. But even with a full junkyard interior refresh I doubt you break 3k.

The early 7.3 PSD is pretty weak in the power department (it's around 215 - 220 hp IIRC), but other than that, if it's in respectable condition, it should be a good truck. 

Ok, good to know. It's about an hour away, and with the time change it'll be hard to check it out before dark, but I'll try to figure out a way this week. 

I had every powerstroke problem in the 7.3 truck I had for a couple of years.  Paid 9k for the truck and put about half that again into repairs.  Awful, awful truck.  It had about 170k on it when I sold it.  Good riddance.

Have a 454 gassed K3500 now.  Paid $2500 for it, with 230k miles, and love it.  Wife runs a 1/2 ton burb with the pre-4l60 700R4.  If I had to do it again I'd have shopped harder and gotten her a 2500, mostly for the stouter trans.  Hers is OK, but I worry about that trans (we tow a camper with it).  That said, there are shops that "bulletproof" 4l60s and 700R4s.  So that's an option, if you want to stick with the 1/2 tons.  But 3/4s just give you better everything.  I've owned a lot of trucks (1/2, 3/4, and full ton), and beat on them very hard, and I will never not own at least a 3/4 ton truck.  The saying, "don't worry about the horse, just load the cart" comes to mind...

If you don't need a pickup, I echo the recommendation for getting a 'Burban.  Depreciation is much harder on SUVs than trucks.  

The F250 seller said it needs a new LF wheel bearing "again". That one word, coupled with the recently replaced RF spindle makes me think that it likely needs a left one too. He said it wouldn't make the 100-miles back home as-is, which means I'd need to find a way to get it towed home, then have to tear into it before I could use it.

I think I'll pass on this one & keep looking. 

volvoclearinghouse said:

I had every powerstroke problem in the 7.3 truck I had for a couple of years.  Paid 9k for the truck and put about half that again into repairs.  Awful, awful truck.  It had about 170k on it when I sold it.  Good riddance.

Have a 454 gassed K3500 now.  Paid $2500 for it, with 230k miles, and love it.  Wife runs a 1/2 ton burb with the pre-4l60 700R4.  If I had to do it again I'd have shopped harder and gotten her a 2500, mostly for the stouter trans.  Hers is OK, but I worry about that trans (we tow a camper with it).  That said, there are shops that "bulletproof" 4l60s and 700R4s.  So that's an option, if you want to stick with the 1/2 tons.  But 3/4s just give you better everything.  I've owned a lot of trucks (1/2, 3/4, and full ton), and beat on them very hard, and I will never not own at least a 3/4 ton truck.  The saying, "don't worry about the horse, just load the cart" comes to mind...

If you don't need a pickup, I echo the recommendation for getting a 'Burban.  Depreciation is much harder on SUVs than trucks.  

 

Does your wife have any issue with the burb? I see a lot of people afraid its too big and thus they get the tahoe but I think the burb is better value

Jaynen said:

volvoclearinghouse said:

I had every powerstroke problem in the 7.3 truck I had for a couple of years.  Paid 9k for the truck and put about half that again into repairs.  Awful, awful truck.  It had about 170k on it when I sold it.  Good riddance.

Have a 454 gassed K3500 now.  Paid $2500 for it, with 230k miles, and love it.  Wife runs a 1/2 ton burb with the pre-4l60 700R4.  If I had to do it again I'd have shopped harder and gotten her a 2500, mostly for the stouter trans.  Hers is OK, but I worry about that trans (we tow a camper with it).  That said, there are shops that "bulletproof" 4l60s and 700R4s.  So that's an option, if you want to stick with the 1/2 tons.  But 3/4s just give you better everything.  I've owned a lot of trucks (1/2, 3/4, and full ton), and beat on them very hard, and I will never not own at least a 3/4 ton truck.  The saying, "don't worry about the horse, just load the cart" comes to mind...

If you don't need a pickup, I echo the recommendation for getting a 'Burban.  Depreciation is much harder on SUVs than trucks.  

 

Does your wife have any issue with the burb? I see a lot of people afraid its too big and thus they get the tahoe but I think the burb is better value

Mrs. VCH and I went shopping together for her 'Burb.  She's 5'2" and 110 lbs so she wanted to make sure she could see over the dash and reach the pedals and what not.  We test drove the one she has now and she liked it, so we bought it- a 1991, for $1700.  Keep in mind this is the older, box-body style.  The GMT400 and later are even more "female friendly".  A retired lady friend of mine was looking to replace her Subaru with something a bit more towing-friendly (she has a camper) and I steered her towards a Tahoe.  She balked at first, until she realized it was only about 6" longer than her current Subaru wagon.  She pulled the trigger on a GMT800 Tahoe, and loves it.  (It also get about the same MPG as her Subaru did when towing her camper!)

Mrs VCH has had her Burb for about 2 -1/2 years now and she's grown pretty attached to "Black Betty".  ;-)  It's got 190,000 on it and we just drove it 300 miles to upstate NY this weekend, 2 kids and a dog along for the ride.

Because I like data I looked up this

my 2004 Ford F150 Crew Cab 139" wheel base 224" total length 22.5' turning radius

2004 Tahoe 116" 199" 19' turning radius

2004 Suburban 130"  219" 21' turning radius

SWMBO liked driving the truck and had no issues with it and its bigger than either.

to put it into perspective

2004 F250 Crew Cab  156" wheelbase 246" total length Turning radius 26-28'

Next question: GMT800 > GMT400, correct? But how much better are they, and in what areas are they better? Reliability? MPG??

In reply to Pete Gossett :

I would assume they're safer, more powerful, more efficient, and obviously more modern. 

In reply to yupididit :

That's what I expect, but I'd like some more details. For example, I owned an 88 C1500, that was replaced with a 99 E3500. The van was worlds better than the pickup - it felt better built, had far better ergonomics, and got better mileage despite it being a 350 vs. the pickup's 305. Which is to be expected being 11 years newer. But how much difference would there be between a later GMT400 vs. an early GMT800 - would the differences be that noticeable?

Pete Gossett said:

In reply to yupididit :

That's what I expect, but I'd like some more details. For example, I owned an 88 C1500, that was replaced with a 99 E3500. The van was worlds better than the pickup - it felt better built, had far better ergonomics, and got better mileage despite it being a 350 vs. the pickup's 305. Which is to be expected being 11 years newer. But how much difference would there be between a later GMT400 vs. an early GMT800 - would the differences be that noticeable?

The chumpcar team I met with locally had a GMT400 suburbans for tow rigs. The biggest differences are in engines. You go from the 5.7 SBC and 454 BBC, to 5.3 vortec and 6.0 vortec family. Both seem to be the 4l60/4l80. Looks like 1996 and up got newer versions of engines. they have like over 300-400k on at least one of them.

In reply to Jaynen :

Thanks, sounds like 96 up is definitely what I want, if not GMT800.  

One problem with the 800s is they seem to be more rust-prone than the 400s for some reason, even though they're newer.  I see lots of 400s running around here (Baltimore area) that look pretty clean, but it seems like every 800 has rust on it somewhere.  My 93 (GMT400) has not a spec of rust on it.  Its got dents, scratches, and has been generally beat on pretty hard...but no rust.  

Interesting, wonder if its undercoat/paint they switched?