In reply to KyAllroad (Jeremy) :
But when someone takes raw time in a shifter kart, no one cares. The whole purpose of autox is to have fun, not swing a big member...
like I said before, if you just want to stroke your ego, look cool in front of friends, or overcompensate, go have a trophy made.
If you want a sense of accomplishment, make yourself fast, and outdo everyone in a pathetic car.
Formula 500, I'm into my car for just over $3000. The car is always in the top 5 even on moderately worn tires. It weighs 500lbs so you could tow it with any car you have. The are one of the most fun cars I've ever driven at autocross. I was a confirmed road racer (still am) until I drove a friends at an autocross. In the 4 years I've had mine I've purchased 6 tires ($1200) a drive belt ($35) and around $300 in fuel (two stroke so fuel cost includes yamalube / motul).
The car will make you a better driver, while anyone can drive them getting the most out of them is very challenging. My goal at each event is to get as close to the shifter karts as possible. They'll pull 2Gs in a corner and 0-60 mph is right on 3 seconds with autocross gearing.
I'm thinking that "competitive" apparently means "winning".
The problem is, that Autocross is not about the car, it's about the driver.
The best way to make your car more competitive is to make yourself a better driver. You can make yourself a better driver driving ANYTHING.
So, don't worry about the classes, the car, or winning. Worry about making yourself a better driver.
THEN, worry about the car.
The cheapest Autocross car you can buy is the one you already own.
A great driver can be competitive in a crappy car. A great car will never be competitive with a crappy driver.
Easy answer: KM. It's not a car but you can buy a winning kart for $3000 and as a bonus, you can compete in karting events all over the place as well.
I’ve always liked the idea of beating people (or what have you) with what would be considered underdog material.
I had about $1,000 into a Samurai and could crawl anywhere “real Jeeps” that cost 10-20 times what my Samurai cost me and into places they couldn’t fit.
If it were me, and maybe someday it will be, I’d take a pretty unassuming car and slowly transform it, but more importantly myself, into the best combination “we” could be.
And just have fun doing it.
Edit: Just saw SVreX said it first.
SVreX said:I'm thinking that "competitive" apparently means "winning".
The problem is, that Autocross is not about the car, it's about the driver.
The best way to make your car more competitive is to make yourself a better driver. You can make yourself a better driver driving ANYTHING.
So, don't worry about the classes, the car, or winning. Worry about making yourself a better driver.
THEN, worry about the car.
The cheapest Autocross car you can buy is the one you already own.
A great driver can be competitive in a crappy car. A great car will never be competitive with a crappy driver.
for me, a competitive car is a car that could win if driven by a very good driver and an uncompetitive car is one where a top notch driver gets beaten by less than top notch drivers. or another thing. an uncompetitive car is one that teaches you bad driving habits trying to force it to go faster.
In reply to Daeldalus :
I think that is optimistic.
A poor driver can learn just as many bad habits driving a fast car.
Fast cars make poor drivers worse, because they don't have to drive better. They just let the car do what it is capable of, and never realize they are driving poorly.
Learn to drive a slow car fast first.
In reply to Daeldalus :
Having said that, I don't think a Miata is a bad choice. It's a slow car which can be made faster as the driver improves.
In reply to SVreX :
At what point can you say a bad car is holding me back versus I am just not a good enough driver?
In reply to Daeldalus :
I don't think a bad car will hold you back. I don't think there is such a thing as a bad car
I think you are desperately wanting to believe a fast car will make you a better driver. It won't.
If you want to spend money to become more competitive, enroll in a performance driving school.
Daeldalus said:In reply to SVreX :
At what point can you say a bad car is holding me back versus I am just not a good enough driver?
I think one thing that SVreX is trying get across is that the Miata is a very easy car to drive fast. And that is both good and bad. It's good that you will have a car that you will enjoy driving a lot, it has great feedback, and it's vices are not a huge problem. And it's bad because noticing where you are making mistakes will be a little more subdued, and you may blame the set up of the car instead of paying attention to your driving.
Contrast that with a car I'm pretty familar with- the Alfa 105/115 chassis. It was good in the day, but it takes a lot finer touch to be really fast. And I know that if you put a lot of effort into learning driving in that car, when you jump into a Miata, you wil be really fast out of the box. The Alfa's vices are really easy to see, and you have to be a lot more precise to get more out of it than a Miata. It will force you to have good technique.
Not saying you can't learn to be really fast in a Miata- just that it can hide some bad technique really easily.
Still, it's call the Answer for a reason.
On the original question- another thing to consider, especially in terms of what class you run is consumables. Back when I was running 10-15 events a year, I'd use a set of R tires per year. I may be wrong, but I suspect that big engined cars have big tires that are consumed pretty quickly. Whereas tires for a Miata or a Civic are both cheaper and will last longer. Same for brakes. I wish I could provide input to how long street tires last, but I never ran them. I'm sure someone can come up with a relative wear rate between R's and +200 tires, so you can get an idea of cost vs wear.
And another thing to consider- how big of a class would you have to run a Miata OR a Civic in? When I last autocrossed, the Civic class was pretty small relative to the Miata classes. But how that fit into your local classing will help figure on what kind of competition you will see without the PAX.
Lastly- if it comes down to car A vs B (like Civic v Miata)- you should also ask yourself which car you like better. There should be a degree of passion in doing a sport.
In reply to Daeldalus :
FWD or RWD?
I am not used to seeing Miatas and Civics discussed together. The driving is completely different.
Which do you like?
I LIKE RWD better, but I am a better FWD driver.
TA_ said:Get a one way plane ticket to Minneapolis and buy the former Andy Hollis STS Civic for 5k. The car is a two time national champion and consumables will be cheap relative to other classes.
Wow. I think this is your answer.
Also, Chris Dorsey’s old EP CRX was (is?) for sale recently for $6k, which is a berkeleying_steal.
loosecannon said:Easy answer: KM. It's not a car but you can buy a winning kart for $3000 and as a bonus, you can compete in karting events all over the place as well.
Double bonus in that in might fit in the back of a large suv!
In reply to Trackmouse :
In a 1990 Suburban a kart will fit prefectly.
Get a R53 MINI and run in STX. In a region with something like 10 more experienced drivers in the class. When the last time I raced was 5 years ago. I'll consider it a "win" if I don't finish DFL.
SVreX gives some very sound advice as does Alfadriver. With that said I'll be a bit of a counter point just to throw out some other things even though I'm pretty much in agreement with them. I apologize up front for belaboring some of the points.
Buying a front running car is a good idea except for the fact that the car set up might not fit the driving style that works best for you. I'll use a friend's Exocet as an example, the person who originally set it up has a polar opposite driving style. I'm a trail braker and he sets the car up to rotate anytime your off the throttle. So first run ever in the car I go storming up to a fast sweeper (50 mph), as soon as I touched the brake pedal I new the car was going around. The person who set up the car was in the passenger seat. When the run was finished we both looked at each other and pretty much said at the same time the car is set up to roll into the corners. I'm lucky in that I can change my driving style almost instantly to fit the car but I prefer a car set up a particular way.
If you do all your braking in a straight line and drive my Datsun (my road race car) you'll think it understeers, additionally you'll likely be freaked out by the brake bias because as part my usual set up I run a lot rear brake bias.
In the Formula 500, which is my autocross car, it's set up with as much oversteer as possible while still being able to get power down coming of the corners. It too has a ton off rear brake bias. Most of this is brought on the fact that F500s have a solid rear axle like a cart so they push the front end in slow corners (all of autocross). If you are not super comfortable with oversteer you will struggle in the car.
A Miata in a street tire class will teach you a lot but as Alfadriver pointed out the will tolerate over driving. You can chuck them round like a spring car, if your driving is at a level where you don't realize you are over driving it you'll never know. You'll happily pound around scratching your head wondering why the times aren't there. Despite that I would recommend one as you will learn a lot in one and once you have a Miata can be made progressively faster. They are also competitive in several classes.
Now if you want to learn get to some sort of school. Here is the rub with autocross because of the low speeds things happen quickly. As someone who instructs the most common thing I encounter is drivers who snap off the brake pedal, which bounces the nose of the car and unloads the front end, instant understeers. At autocross the car will unload the front end and then regain track all within the space of 25ft / 3 tenths of a second. To put this in perspective; on a 45 second autocross course can you give me fed back about 90 things that happened while you where on course. Probably not. Talked to an experienced and fast autocrossers they can tell give you feedback like on 12th corner stay one foot to the left of the 4th cone, you know the one with the smudge that looks like a tiger paw.
For the reasons above I recommend going to a track day; yes the driving style on a road course is different, basically you can't be as aggressive with your inputs. I've coached some friends at track days who are good autocrossers but can't quite make the leap to absolute front runner. The advantage on a road course is things take a looooooong time to happen. If you unload the front end as I described earlier it's going to 80 feet and a full second for the car to recover. Additionally because the corners are 200 feet long it's very easy to isolate the various phases of a corner. Whereas autocross will let you get away with being rough with the car it's becomes immediately apparent on a road course (Not the this stops road racers from being just as rough with the car). Again things happen slower and there is less to process on a road course.
If you local club has an autocross school then go to it, you will learn a lot and it will be a huge help. My instructing isn't purely altruistic, there is a great benefit to multiple points of view. As a driver I'm always trying to learn more, whether it's set up or mental approach.
Fianlly to circle back to the focus of the topic at hand. FWD Civics are excellent cars, the first time I drive one set up for autocross I remember thinking "Holy cow this things a weapon". I like Miatas more because they fit my driving style better. Regardless of car I do recommend a low power car to start. When you make a mistake in a low powered car it's immediately apparent by the tachometer.
So to recap get a low powered car and go to a school, if there are no schools available ask a experienced fast driver to take pity on you and ride along for a run or two. An experienced driver will be able to tell you what to work on after a single run.
For a new car, it is hard to beat the Fiesta ST in HS. Locally, your only real competition is another FiST. But don't discount an older Focus. This is a ZX running FSP that hasn't had much done to it really, and it was much faster than my FiST.
I was also beat by a 2nd Gen Miata in ES. Well driven for sure, but a similar car could be put together for under $5k I bet. ES is not a budget buster, you just have to know who else runs locally. Like any class, if you have a Nationally competitive driver in your class, you are SOL.
4th Gen Civics can always be a winner, even Nationally. Just but someone else's project or cast-off IT car. Or, find a stripped-out model and add MASSIVE Hoosiers. And since the 4th Gen are getting old, the same can be said for newer models as well.
Another option locally CAN be SM. Hear me out here, this is a massively expensive class nationally, but locally it is often populated by casual racers who modified their car with a chip or BOV or larger intercooler, etc. I see a lot of cars in SM that put out big HP numbers, but run stock suspensions and street tires.
There is also something to be said for driving a car you are used to rather than worrying about how fast it is. Then you can concentrate more on the course and placing the car correctly rather than thinking about how to drive the car. That was one of my problems after I tried running an E30 in STX. A car I didn't really drive very often other than for autocross. I wasn't used to the steering. I wasn't used to RWD. I wasn't used to how the engine made power. Needless to say that car and I did not get along well. To be honest, I am more than a little nervous about driving the R53 this weekend. While I've driven it a reasonable amount over the past year, this will be the first time I've really driven it in anger.
One other car that hasn't been mentioned is an r50/r56 base Mini. It is competitive with the Fiesta ST in H-Street with 100 less lb/ft of torque. You can find them for $3K-5K all day. Wheels and tires are cheap because you can get used Civic/Miata parts. Repair costs are another matter.
I know "drivermod" isn't the answer you were looking for, but lets put this into perspective.
H-Street is currently dominated by Fiesta STs pretty much nation wide (although IIRC a Mini Cooper won the nationals?). One of the local guys to me runs a 1994-ish Saturn SC2, and he is regularly in the top of PAX. By all measures it's a sub-$1000 car. He does ride-along instructions for novices, and definitely has "drivermod" down pat.
If I remember right I've also seen him run a '90s Silverado.
TheRX7Project said:I know "drivermod" isn't the answer you were looking for, but lets put this into perspective.
H-Street is currently dominated by Fiesta STs pretty much nation wide (although IIRC a Mini Cooper won the nationals?). One of the local guys to me runs a 1994-ish Saturn SC2, and he is regularly in the top of PAX. By all measures it's a sub-$1000 car. He does ride-along instructions for novices, and definitely has "drivermod" down pat.
If I remember right I've also seen him run a '90s Silverado.
We have a similar situation of a guy who runs a beat-to-E36 M3 5th-generation Celica. He bought it for $1000 on craigslist , runs cast-off RE71Rs from a Chump Car team, an adjustable rear sway bar and some old adjustable Konis. The car is literally falling apart, power steering doesn't work, runs like garbage to the point where he only drives it to and from events. He's not a crazy good Nationals level driver, but he is usually up there in class and overall standings, even against cars that are more the pointy edge of the field.
Daeldalus said:In reply to SVreX :
At what point can you say a bad car is holding me back versus I am just not a good enough driver?
When a really good driver takes your car out and can’t cut near the top with it. Have a few different, top drivers wring your car out. Get feed back.
Like said above, there is no “bad car”, just one that isn’t setup to easily punish. Ok, I guess a minivan or some CuV might be terrible, but most people don’t show up to win with THAT set of keys...
Ride-along instruction, like a personal mentor, is the fastest way to improve your skills. At this early stage of your development, the car is immaterial.
Daeldalus said:Lets say you wanted to you wanted to be competitive in your local Autox chapter but you don't have a bunch of money to sink into it
(Cheapest options that would have a fighting chance would cost $30k~$50kUS by me. There are some cars that cost well into the 6-digits competing).
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