So i live in Europe. Taxes here are crazy for larger engines (no matter how new or old they are).
I'm looking for a new car - a daily driver that i can do occasional track days.
Engine Up To 2.0 - No american brands as they're not available widely in Europe
I'm looking for something rather cheap (don't have a budget in mind but i'm not willing to spend on a 2015+ BMW, Merc or Jag). So something between 2005-2012 (budget around 4-8k Euros Max - that's just the budget for the car, as i'll probably spend on some extras).
Currently own a 2002 Lexus IS200 (nice car, great handling but adding more power is really expensive), an old Saab 9-3 (currently at about 270 BHP but the chassis is absolute crap so in the corners you piss your pants) and an Alfa 159 diesel (170 horses but i don't really like disesels - so it must be petrol).
It can either be a sedan or hatchback, i don't mind either, but i need 4 doors and 4 seats.
170 or so horses minimum (my Lexus pretends to have 155 but it does not seem to be enough).
Cars that i would buy if i would be willing to spend : Lexus IS350 Hybrid (lots of power and low tax for hybrids) or a Jag XF (2.0 petrol, 240 horses) - but i'm not willing to spend that much on a car.
Looking for something with tuning potential (things like suspensions, forged internals - at decent prices - turbo if it doesn't have one or bigger turbo, etc). I don't really like BMWs (i do like them but i would not want to be seen in one), right now the only car that fits the bill is a 2005-2012 Audi A4 (or A3) 2.0 TFSI.
What other alternatives would i have?
STM317
UltraDork
6/25/20 9:16 a.m.
In reply to andykauf :
I know you said no American brands, but you guys get the Ford Fiesta ST don't you? That really seems like a nice option given the criteria. They're a European based design with a 1.6t that makes 197hp/202 ft-lbs and are super enjoyable right out of the box.
You could also step up to the Focus ST if you want more power/size.
oh yea, my bad, i meant, no american brands that are not available in europe - fords are cool, the fiesta ST is definitely on my list from now, unfortunately, the Focus ST (or RS) has a 2.5 or 2.3 liter engine (and that's 4-5 times more tax expensive than a 2.0).
thing is, i don't do too much mileage each year (no work commute or anything like that) so i can't justify (to myself) a high tax car
Renault Clio seems to be a good entry level track car. I see lots for sale for good prices on a UK facebook group for track day cars I follow...
GTI?
GTI! There's a metric E36 M3 ton of aftermarket support and they are fun right out of the box. 2.0l turbo so it just slips under the tax barrier.
Fueled by Caffeine said:
Renault Clio seems to be a good entry level track car. I see lots for sale for good prices on a UK facebook group for track day cars I follow...
GTI?
Clio is awesome, however the RS version is only in 2 doors (really need 4 doos). I owned a Renault Megane RS and it was amazing (sold it because of the 2 doors - they're available in 4 doors as well but hard to find - it would definitely be in my top 3 if i could find a 4 door model - for good money).
andykauf said:
... unfortunately, the Focus ST (or RS) has a 2.5 or 2.3 liter engine (and that's 4-5 times more tax expensive than a 2.0).
Isn't the 2018 and older ST a 2.0L in Europe?
CAinCA said:
GTI! There's a metric E36 M3 ton of aftermarket support and they are fun right out of the box. 2.0l turbo so it just slips under the tax barrier.
Exactly what I was going to suggest. Turbo gives you as much tuning potential as you have dollars and stones to take advantage of.
I was going to say just to keep the pricing down, Go with a regular Golf with the 1.8L and go to town. If you are going to change a lot of the suspension kit and tune it anyways, you can save a lot up front and keep somewhat close in performance.
FooBag (Forum Supporter) said:
andykauf said:
... unfortunately, the Focus ST (or RS) has a 2.5 or 2.3 liter engine (and that's 4-5 times more tax expensive than a 2.0).
Isn't the 2018 and older ST a 2.0L in Europe?
Focuses until 2012 were 2.5 (or 2.3). Starting from 2012 they got 2.0 ecoboost engine running around 220-250 - but the cheapest one i could find was around 15k euros
@bmw88rider - stock golf (1.8 or even 2.0) is a great idea - adding a turbo would be great, not sure if the stock internals would be able to handle 250-300 bhp...
bmw88rider (Forum Supporter) said:
I was going to say just to keep the pricing down, Go with a regular Golf with the 1.8L and go to town. If you are going to change a lot of the suspension kit and tune it anyways, you can save a lot up front and keep somewhat close in performance.
The 2.0 in the GTI has variable exhaust timing, the 1.8 does not. With the same turbo (that is, upgrade the 1.8 with the is20) and their software, Unitronic claims the GTI produces 36 more hp and 60 ft lbs more torque.
if you want cheap power in a sub-2l sedan, you need turbo.
In reply to Pete. (l33t FS) :
will definitely need a turbo - either from the factory (which i'll later on replace and get better cooling and exhaust) or add a turbo myself if a turbo manifold is available (the turbo itself and intercooler won't be an issue)
In reply to mfenell :
yes the base gti engine should be better than a stock 2.0 engine - i believe only older gen golfs (3 and 4) had non turbo engines that were on par with the gtis of the moment. starting from golf 5, the engines have different internals and stuff (so i heard)
I was going to suggest i30 1.6T's. But they only came out in 2015, it looks like... so they're bottoming out around 12k euros. There's a few veloster's around, and they're dipping below 10k euros... but I dunno if their 4 doors would count.
I reckon some kind of VAG product, as mentioned is probably your best bet. Although, I'd probably lean for a SEAT... maybe a Leon 2.0T, since they tend to be a cheaper entry point to VW/Audi. Maybe too cheap for you, though?
Are you going to have to deal with a certification entity like TuV?
In reply to sleepyhead the buffalo :
won't need tuv certification or anything like that...
i was initially looking at VW but a golf GTI is hard to find in decent condition (or with reasonable mileage). then i really started looking at audi a4 / a3 - a bit more fancy if you ask me and i would also get a quattro (which would really help in case i'll need to go crazy with the BHP). but same thing as the golfs, they're either too beat up or really expensive (even older models).
so i guess i'll be looking at a Seat (if i want a hatchback) or a Skoda Octavia MK2 VRS if i want a sedan.
guess there are no other options in Europe other than VAG or BMW...
I'd also look at Alfas and Fiats - a fair number of their offerings are turbocharged.
what about a GTD instead of a GTI? arnt diesels cheaper?
Is there a reason you can't have two cars? A 4 door daily driver and a dedicated track day car allows each to do its job better without being compromised with multiple tasks.
I don't have a good feel for what cars cost in Europe, but what does a ~2011ish F20 BMW 125i go for? I did a business trip to France a couple years ago and they were everywhere, I thought they were freaking awesome.
RWD, Turbo, Manual hatch. Does it get any better than that?
In reply to rothwem :
I was using 'autoscout24'... dunno if that's mainly Germany focused. Sometimes each country has it's own 'go-to' used car site. But, I was seeing 125's mostly around €10k, a few down to €8500. But, OP's not real into BMW's.
They do pretty well around the 'Ring with Rent4Ring, though... have lasted better than the BRZ86 twins, iirc.
