1 2
Pete. (l33t FS)
Pete. (l33t FS) GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
2/18/25 2:14 p.m.
sleepyhead the buffalo said:

Let's assume they derate the motors to 500kW (~670hp), and use the HummerEV's battery pack (so 200kWh)... that still means 24mins of racing with no regen (so, maybe 30mins with regen?)... and that's with a pack that apparently weighs 2800#s by itself.

I look forward to EV's making inroads in motorsports; but I think the above maths indicates that time-attack is going to be the main place we see EV's "racing".

I reckon short-track might be a other option, but that would take a lot of risk and design work... which I don't see being popular.

And, don't forget SummitPoint is still banning Hybrids/EVs... so there's cost/training barriers on the facilities side to overcome as well.

You know how they're going to "personalities" and doing weird things that get in the way of actual racing?

 

The same thing happened to monster truck racing.

 

My prediction:  They're going to get away from racing and go to a drift style "NASCAR Jam" kind of circus.

Tig
Tig New Reader
2/18/25 2:21 p.m.

if this is the future, I'm glad I'm 70 and enjoyed the golden years of motorsports 

DionR
DionR New Reader
2/18/25 2:29 p.m.
TravisTheHuman said:
DionR said:

Add that the racecar probably weights 5500 to 6000 # and the wrecks we saw this weekend would be a death sentence for the drivers.

NASCAR unveils prototype electric race car - NBC Sports

The car weighs about 4,000 pounds. The current Next Gen car weighs about 3,500 pounds.

 

Thanks for that.  I generally boycott EV articles and didn't even think to read the article to see if they posted a weight.  Better than I expected.

So +500 #, bet that still makes a hell of a bigger dent at 150 mph.  Can an electric motor even run up to 150+ mph?

And a 78kWh battery instead of the 200kWh battery speculated above.  So 9 minutes of racing if they detune the motors?  Sounds like a ton of fun to watch.

Wasn't there a bunch of other EV racing bodies for awhile?  EV bikes at the Isle of Man rings a bell.  What happened to all those?  Died of lack of interest?

I can see it how; "Today's NASCAR race was called at 15 laps due to cloud cover reducing the output of the solar panels and extending the second pit stop into the night.  But next week is in Phoenix, so expect the full 30 lap/4 hour race to happen".

MadScientistMatt
MadScientistMatt UltimaDork
2/19/25 12:46 p.m.

More thoughts: with a tall profile and short range, these might almost make sense on a quarter mile clay oval when they're running a lot of different classes in a night. The trouble is getting the price down to what a local oval track team can afford.

STM317
STM317 PowerDork
2/19/25 7:18 p.m.
DionR said:
TravisTheHuman said:
DionR said:

Add that the racecar probably weights 5500 to 6000 # and the wrecks we saw this weekend would be a death sentence for the drivers.

NASCAR unveils prototype electric race car - NBC Sports

The car weighs about 4,000 pounds. The current Next Gen car weighs about 3,500 pounds.

 

Thanks for that.  I generally boycott EV articles and didn't even think to read the article to see if they posted a weight.  Better than I expected.

So +500 #, bet that still makes a hell of a bigger dent at 150 mph.  Can an electric motor even run up to 150+ mph?

They tested the generic prototype @ Martinsville back in 2023, and got it within 0.2 seconds per lap of what the Cup cars run now without really pushing it.

sleepyhead the buffalo
sleepyhead the buffalo GRM+ Memberand PowerDork
2/19/25 8:23 p.m.
STM317 said:

In July 2024, NASCAR revealed their EV racer prototype with the help of ABB with a "generic CUV body":

[...]

All of them are 3 motor powertrains that use a heavy dose of the current Cup car chassis, and if I'm speculating, probably very similar batteries too. NASCAR's site for their generic EV prototype even includes a photo with Ford, GM, and Toyota EV CUVs:

 

I don't know if we'll get a BZ4X NASCAR prototype or not, but it seems like they've put some thought and organization into this for quite awhile now. Seems very likely to me that they're definitely considering something organized and sanctioned with this format.

Thank you for this comment, STM... it's been giving me a direction to orient my thoughts against.

I think I tripped myself up a bit, and couldn't quite shake an errant correlation between NASCAR==NASCAR.CUP (whatever the 'highest tier' happens to be called now?).

I'd like to thank everyone else who's chimed in on the thread, and dug up details as well.

so, lets use some of those 'found details', the a new mindset from the above in mind, and let's add in the following data:
GridLife completed several weekends of w2s model3 racing this past  year: https://model3challenge.racing/general-info-faq/

stock battery pack (~82kWh), limited to 220kW and at just shy of 4000lb. reading between the lines, I think they were limiting the starting charge to the voltage equivalent of 80%, and probably shooting for completing the racing around 20%.  This is grassroots, so they can't guarantee charging at the track, so they need to bake in a cushion that a "pro" series wouldn't.  Still, they managed 12-15min sessions.

some background specs on a model3
82kWh pack has a power density of ~260kW/kg; meaning the pack weighs ~700#s.

Let's say that ABB has cells that are 20% better than a factory Telsa battery, so 300kW/kg; I reckon the pack could be in the range of 300-350kg, so 90 - 105kWh.  If we figure an output anywhere between 300 and 500kW, that puts race time between 15 and 20mins for a full pack... although, I reckon 90% is a more likely pack usage, so they don't have to wait around for a the last 10% of the recharge.

I think the CUV body is fine. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if it ended up with a similar Cd*Ax to the cup cars. "spoilers" (to use the the 'term du arte') aren't what I'd consider efficient aerodynamic devices.

sleepyhead the buffalo
sleepyhead the buffalo GRM+ Memberand PowerDork
2/19/25 9:04 p.m.

for my next comment, I want to consider what we've heard in the thread.  1) NASCAR is being cagey on details. 2) The manufacturers are clambering for it. 3) A significant amount of development has gone in a spec car that leverages core aspects of NASCAR's "IP".

I spent most of the time, thinking about: if this had to be used, where would it make sense based on the expected time limitations?

My mind jumped to the idea that (afterall) NASCAR owns GrandAm. This 'CUPEV' would probably be a reasonable replacement for TCR. And as a support series, there'd be a way to pop there shorter races around the practice/qualifying schedules.

Along the same lines, the same cars and drivers could potentially be added to a number of 'short track' days on the NASCAR calendar (Martinsville, Bristol, ?), as well as a couple of other 'experimental' venues (ala Rose Bowl, Chicago Street Circuit).

That would be a reasonable number of dates, and a wide cross-section of venues, fans, and "activations" (if I'm getting my 2010's marketing terminology correct).

With a portable generator, these things should be able to charge anywhere between 250 and 500kW; which means the pack should be able to charge between 10 and 20mins. Too slow for a pitstop, but more than enough time to get done between sessions of 'other stuff'.  Unless someone at NASCAR is crazy enough to try and split the pack, and figure out a way to plug two 500kW chargers at the same time. surprise

I reckon some combination of the above is likely. Hopefully someone over there has the foresight to realize this series needs to be at GrandAm and NASCAR races.

and that gets to the really interesting "why?" question.
in case it wasn't clear, NASCAR is way behind the curve on hybrid and EV racing.  If they sit around ignoring it, they're going to have a lot of the rules for GrandAm dictated to them by LeMans/FIA (who are almost certainly going to be forced into Hybrid/EV rulesets because of the environment around the {physical, legal, political, cultural}), because they won't have any internal expertise to draw on. And, there's only so many times you can pull on your upper cheek, say "mon oeil", and stick out one's tongue before you're ignored altogether.

also, NASCAR is losing fans/viewership.  they need something else to draw in and excite people.  this might be it, especially as a number of younger people are away of EVs and their performance capabilities (in part thanks to Garrett Mitchell / BoostedBoiz, etc).  ironically, in some ways, their current "stage race" / "mandatory pitstops" format while probably eventually dovetail really well into a NASCAR-EVCUP format, eventually, where the race stops every 30mins for a tire-change/charge. But, I reckon it'll be ~10years before the batteries are there to go that long at 600-700kW, not to mention figuring out how to charge 400-500kW in 5minutes.  None of that, though, is possible if they don't start now with baby steps and getting familiar/expertise in how these systems work... and that's before one even gets around to dealing with how much easier it is to spec-race an EV.

final part of the "why!?" - Manufacturers
Chevy and Ford, need this.  I realize there's a lot of resistance {heh} to EV's here. But, there's a lot of markets outside the US (which is total easily outweigh our market here) where EV's a more than priority.  they're a necessity.  Plus, over here, Ford and Chevy need to wipe clear some missteps when it comes to EV's, and have a better chance of "telling the story" of EV's to a group of buyers who will go out of there way to avoid it at all costs.  The more EV's they can sell here, the less likely they are to become the Jaguar, British Leyland, etc of the 21st century.  So, adding some EV racing to NASCAR is an unparalled avenue for bridging that gap, educating, and informing.

I'm curious to follow this development, at a slight distance. Even though I'm excited by the possibilities EV's bring to motorsports... I've learned to be cautious of NASCAR's iron-ham hand.

but, "thus just, like, [my] opinion... man"

standard buffalo caveats: lector, emptor, oculus, mathematica, iirc, ymmv, etc.

STM317
STM317 PowerDork
2/20/25 7:27 a.m.

Just for data, I believe the current Formula E cars use a 51kwh battery pack that weighs less than 300kg. It provides up to 400kw of power, and can regen at 600kw, so on tight city circuits they're claiming to recover something like 40% of the energy used to propel the cars. And if you can cram 600kw into the battery via regen, you can also cram 600kw into the battery via pit stop charging. They're adding around 4kwh of capacity in ~34 second pit stops

 

 

Any guesses who makes the 600kw chargers? That's right, the same ABB that sponsors Formula E and built the prototype NASCAR unit discussed here.

Pete. (l33t FS)
Pete. (l33t FS) GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
2/20/25 8:11 a.m.

In reply to sleepyhead the buffalo :

Re: splitting the pack - isn't that how high speed charging works to begin with, charging all the cells massively in parallel?

Given that automakers are pulling back a bit on electrification (on this continent, at least) and even WRC is taking the hybrid systems away... I'm curious what they are planning, if anything.

DionR
DionR New Reader
2/20/25 12:57 p.m.

So instead of an ICE car, we have ICE generators in the pits?  Feels a little bit like the Wizard of OZ; "NASCAR is green now, just don't look behind the screen".

Maybe a better analogy is the Emperor's New Clothes.  smiley

Indy - Guy
Indy - Guy UltimaDork
2/20/25 1:38 p.m.

Is he a Mini-Man or is that thing HUGE ?  I mean, it' basically shoulder height.  WTF ?

STM317
STM317 PowerDork
2/20/25 1:49 p.m.

In reply to Indy - Guy :

Google says Justin Allgaier is 5'6" tall.

The ABB prototype NASCAR EV is 4'8" tall (~6" taller than the current Cup cars).

maschinenbau
maschinenbau GRM+ Memberand PowerDork
2/20/25 2:14 p.m.
MadScientistMatt said:

More thoughts: with a tall profile and short range, these might almost make sense on a quarter mile clay oval when they're running a lot of different classes in a night. The trouble is getting the price down to what a local oval track team can afford.

That makes a ton of sense. EV class at the local dirt track could mean no cheater engines. Just tires, setup, and driver. 

STM317
STM317 PowerDork
2/20/25 2:19 p.m.

In reply to maschinenbau :

With a 3 motor setup like these, you'd have quite a few variables to tune F/R power distribution as well as left/right torque vectoring. Then you add regen braking tuning as well, and there could be some interesting levers to pull outside of the typical aero and suspension.

maschinenbau
maschinenbau GRM+ Memberand PowerDork
2/20/25 2:27 p.m.

In reply to STM317 :

Yessss. I'm gonna need someone to photoshop a giant sprint car wing on the roof of this Blazer now...

sleepyhead the buffalo
sleepyhead the buffalo GRM+ Memberand PowerDork
2/20/25 2:56 p.m.

I'm tempted to make a flippant comment about the lack of an easy/codified name for this... prototype.  I'll just copy/paste the term from STM's post of "ABB prototype NASCAR EV"

Thanks for digging up more details STM!  I will admit to being conservative in my numbers.  600kW of charging/regen is quite impressive.  I've seen reference to modified model3's being battery pack limited to 260kW of regen; and I reckon that just goes to show how much higher performance is possible with a higher battery pack / controller / charger budget (not to mention what I'd assume would significantly lower expected usage compared to a mass-consumed family EV).

I feel these details even more strongly points to these cars being able to replace TCR in GrandAm; with perhaps a mandatory pitstop for driver change & charging meaning they could do a similar 45-90min runtime(?).  if these cars don't end up over there, it'll be a great loss for that series, imho.

I think a similar setup could potentially fill out a "125" distance race in some NASCAR venues (again short tracks, temporary street circuits, and expand to include their traditional road courses).  I'm on the fence about the intermediate length tracks and still a bit suspect of their utility at the 'super speedways' , from the perspective of those tracks having a disadvantageous balance of straightaways to slow corners (iirc, Daytona et al are basically flat out, right?).

sleepyhead the buffalo
sleepyhead the buffalo GRM+ Memberand PowerDork
2/20/25 3:47 p.m.
STM317 said:

In reply to maschinenbau :

With a 3 motor setup like these, you'd have quite a few variables to tune F/R power distribution as well as left/right torque vectoring. Then you add regen braking tuning as well, and there could be some interesting levers to pull outside of the typical aero and suspension.

Also would allow a significant pit-worker protection increase, since it should be straightforward to implement a motor controller based pitlane speed limit; instead of relying on the driver/penalties for pitlane speed management.

MadScientistMatt
MadScientistMatt UltimaDork
2/20/25 6:29 p.m.
maschinenbau said:

That makes a ton of sense. EV class at the local dirt track could mean no cheater engines. Just tires, setup, and driver. 

Oh, I give teams about three months before someone gets caught with a cheater motor or inverter. But requiring some kind of current limiter or logger handed out just before the race could probably contain most of the tomfoolery.

And combining a just big enough battery pack, production motors and electronics, and generous prize money could make running these attractive to local teams.

You're left with the marketing issue that you're trying to sell EVs in a town where you can't change them, to a crowd that mostly can't afford them. I suppose you could consider that laying groundwork, but this is an audience where price and charging infrastructure are serious issues.

1 2

You'll need to log in to post.

Our Preferred Partners
x8X0ZfPMIVFriXWcJK2IqXY8Uj7j8dhSkcUlAN3p3mm0HcPc3vmuWevNiHoSh3hy