oldsaw said: a Canadian who idolizes Russian bikers who split lanes at escape-velocity speeds.
You meant that as a complement, right?
oldsaw said: a Canadian who idolizes Russian bikers who split lanes at escape-velocity speeds.
You meant that as a complement, right?
My brother had a Cobalt (stripper, probably an old rental) for 100K miles or so. Nothing went wrong with it......nothing. Sure it wasn't fun, or desirable, or exciting in any way, but it wasn't supposed to be. I'm not sure why folks bag on the interior as badly as they do. It isn't nice, but it sure isn't horrible. Overall it was a fine appliance that did exactly what he asked of it, for a long, long time. He also got great mileage. Better than a Civic? probably not. Less expensive, and a viable alternative? Absolutely.
I've actually been looking at SS Turbo Cobalt's lately. They need a few more years of depreciation though. (still around $15K) A turbo Cobalt SS would absolutely destroy a new Civic Si in pretty much any performance comparison for the same or less $$$. Honestly I don't find the Civic Si appealing at all in it's price range. There are too many faster, more capable cars for around the same price.
I have high hopes for the Cruze. It seems Honda / Toyota are slipping a bit, and GM is getting better instead of worse.
Just to point out, you can walk out the dealership door in Canada with a Cobalt SS/T for $23k 
That is an insane amount of car for the money. Its on my short list next year if they still make them.
I drove a couple of the turbo versions last week. Interior was surprisingly nice in the upper range models. Handled pretty good without too much roll on the curvy roads... but the tranny, blech. Hangs onto the gears too long, it's almost like a CVT. Would love to try it in a stick.
bravenrace wrote: I think you must have been in a zomby state when you made your comparison.BTW, I've driven the Civic also, not just ridden in it. Handling atroucious? Sorry, but no Honda handles atrouciously.
I beg to differ. CrossTour. 01-05 Civic LX Sedans. Base model Fit with teh 14's. I can go on if you want.
From what I've been reading, the Cruze is a competent point A to point B-mobile. Doesn't sound like anything soul-stirring, but it's definitely a car GM needs to sell well, and I think it will if they can market it right.
Now, if GM will get with the program and sell the Cruze hatchback here in the States as a sportier variant of the sedan (mayhap an SS model to combat the GTI, Focus ST, and Mazdaspeed3?), then we'll talk.
bravenrace wrote: I think you must have been in a zomby state when you made your comparison.
Hey, you love Hondas and despise domestics-no worries, to each his own. However, Jaime Kittman of Automobile Magazine(and certainly no GM fanboi) devoted an entire column to just how well built and satisfying the Cobalt was as a DD drone. Every bit as reliable as the Honda, as good if not better economy, a much lower street price, a far better warranty, Onstar, etc. Lets be objective, OK? Honda is hardly infallible as evidenced by some of the ugly heaps they currently foist upon the public. Much of what made them such an incredible company 10 years ago has been lost.
Bobzilla wrote:bravenrace wrote: I think you must have been in a zomby state when you made your comparison.I beg to differ. CrossTour. 01-05 Civic LX Sedans. Base model Fit with teh 14's. I can go on if you want.
Much as i hate to agree with teh Bobzilla... this man speaks truths.
I could add a few of my own... old accords being one of them.
A little OT, but why the h-e-double hockey sticks can't the domestics ever bring the really good stuff here?
I don't think you can get a 2-door Fiesta (yet), the redesign of the Focus should have been here sooner, that hatch looks really good, etc....
I don't get it.
OldGray320i wrote: A little OT, but why the h-e-double hockey sticks can't the domestics ever bring the really good stuff here? I don't think you can get a 2-door Fiesta (yet), the redesign of the Focus should have been here sooner, that hatch looks really good, etc.... I don't get it.
Because most people in North America will not pay the premium $$$'s for the cars you mention. We think "Well I could have a fully loaded XYZ for the same amount of money"
jrw1621 wrote: A few things I noted there and on the website: The base model has a 1.8L but the upper models have a 1.4L turbo. Both engines rated at 138 hp. Suprise, the 1.4L turbo can only be had with a 6 speed automatic. The 1.8L can be manual or automatic.
Makes sense. Torque management with a turbo is probably a whole lot easier when the PCM has full control of the drivetrain.
Though the car is final assembled in Lordstown, OH; the domestic content of the vehicle is only 45%. Major contributing countries were Mexico (expected) and Austria. What comes from Austria?
My guess, most of the brake and engine electronics and fuel system hard-parts (Bosch, Bosch, and more Bosch), probably much of the engine, possibly the transaxle, definitely a bunch of suspension. If that 45% is by cost content, then definitely fuel system - direct injection components don't come cheap, and the Big 3 are outsourcing everything.
I think people are missing the big news item: This is the only non-hybrid, real-sized car to be sold in the US with an engine smaller than 1.5l.
I like imports. I don't like domestics. I spend 15-20k miles per year in crapbox domestic rental cars.
That said, I liked the Cobalt.
For what it's worth, I would love to have a Cobalt with the Focus's Duratec engine in it.
I've seen enough 2.2 Ecotecs self-destruct that I wouldn't want to own one. Sure, many of them last basically forever, but some don't. And since my car options are limited to used, I have little control on whether the PO did oil changes every 3k, or every 7500 whether it needed it or not, with the finest oil $1.69 could buy, and never changing the filter 'cause they didn't realize the car had one.
I'll stop here before I start frothing at the mouth in another anti-timing chain rant.
It's difficult to think of a more capable 4 cyl. motor than an Ecotec.
Knurled wrote: For what it's worth, I would love to have a Cobalt with the Focus's Duratec engine in it. I've seen enough 2.2 Ecotecs self-destruct that I wouldn't want to own one. Sure, many of them last basically forever, but some don't. And since my car options are limited to used, I have little control on whether the PO did oil changes every 3k, or every 7500 whether it needed it or not, with the finest oil $1.69 could buy, and never changing the filter 'cause they didn't realize the car had one. I'll stop here before I start frothing at the mouth in another anti-timing chain rant.
I've seen a couple dozen K20's self destructed. Does that mean that all K20s are junk?
I think the Civic and Cobalt are both being judged by their reputation and not by their stats. I love the Civic because of the 88-91 series that really dominate GRM-style sports (and having driven some B-Series swapped cars). But would I buy a Civic today? Way overpriced and underpowered compared to the Cobalt SS, MS3, GTI, etc. I need some torque Honda!
Same goes for the Cobalt. I drove the original (boxy) Cav Z-24 and that was enough to put me off GM for a while (along with numerous Buicks and Chevys that shall remain nameless). But I drove a Cobalt SS and was truly impressed. One more generation and that would have been a world-class car. If the Cruise SS comes out with 225hp or so and a #23K sticker, it would be on my list.
I agree, drive it before you judge it.
The gf is looking at the Cruze as a repleacement for her Corolla next year. Luckily I am friends with the owner of a Subaru/Chevy dealer, and he will sell any of them to her at cost. I was pushing her toward a Subaru to start with (and still kind of am), but I like Chevy too, and finally they have a small car I would recommend to her.
Hey, you love Hondas and despise domestics-no worries, to each his own. However, Jaime Kittman of Automobile Magazine(and certainly no GM fanboi) devoted an entire column to just how well built and satisfying the Cobalt was as a DD drone. Every bit as reliable as the Honda, as good if not better economy, a much lower street price, a far better warranty, Onstar, etc. Lets be objective, OK? Honda is hardly infallible as evidenced by some of the ugly heaps they currently foist upon the public. Much of what made them such an incredible company 10 years ago has been lost.
Please don't put words in my mouth when you have no idea what you are talking about. I don't love imports and hate domestics. I just do my research and determine what I believe is good, not so good, and why. If I was in the market for a car right now, there are a number of domestics I'd seriously consider, just like I did last year when shopping for a SUV.
So let's be objective, okay?
For the record, I am not a Honda nut. Yes, I own two Hondas, but I also own a GM, a Ford, and of the 80 plus cars I've owned, I've owned more Chryslers than anything else. And I just got rid of a Solstice GXP that just so happens to have the same engine as the Cobalt SS. So please, I'm not objective? Hell, I work in the auto industry, talk to experts every day, read all the pro journals, and while you can think what you want, and we don't have to agree, I have the vast majority of the industry behind me, including GM themselves. Your first mistake is thinking that any main stream car mag pundit is either objective or an expert. And as I stated earlier, I'm wasn't trying to make a Cobalt to Civic comparison, I'm making a comparison of the Cobalt to it's competitiors and opining that I'm optimistic that the Cruze may be a big step forward. See, I'm an American, and I want the American companies to succeed, but they won't do it by selling Cobalts or being run by the Government and the UAW. But in the end, you don't discontinue and change the name of a good car. That's why the name "Civic" has been around so long and Cobalt hasn't.
bravenrace wrote:Hey, you love Hondas and despise domestics-no worries, to each his own. However, Jaime Kittman of Automobile Magazine(and certainly no GM fanboi) devoted an entire column to just how well built and satisfying the Cobalt was as a DD drone. Every bit as reliable as the Honda, as good if not better economy, a much lower street price, a far better warranty, Onstar, etc. Lets be objective, OK? Honda is hardly infallible as evidenced by some of the ugly heaps they currently foist upon the public. Much of what made them such an incredible company 10 years ago has been lost.Please don't put words in my mouth when you have no idea what you are talking about. I don't love imports and hate domestics. I just do my research and determine what I believe is good, not so good, and why. If I was in the market for a car right now, there are a number of domestics I'd seriously consider, just like I did last year when shopping for a SUV. Reliability of a Cobalt Reliability of a Civic So let's be objective, okay? For the record, I am not a Honda nut. Yes, I own two Hondas, but I also own a GM, a Ford, and of the 80 plus cars I've owned, I've owned more Chryslers than anything else. And I just got rid of a Solstice GXP that just so happens to have the same engine as the Cobalt SS. So please, I'm not objective? Hell, I work in the auto industry, talk to experts every day, read all the pro journals, and while you can think what you want, and we don't have to agree, I have the vast majority of the industry behind me, including GM themselves. Your first mistake is thinking that any main stream car mag pundit is either objective or an expert. And as I stated earlier, I'm wasn't trying to make a Cobalt to Civic comparison, I'm making a comparison of the Cobalt to it's competitiors and opining that I'm optimistic that the Cruze may be a big step forward. See, I'm an American, and I want the American companies to succeed, but they won't do it by selling Cobalts or being run by the Government and the UAW. But in the end, you don't discontinue and change the name of a good car. That's why the name "Civic" has been around so long and Cobalt hasn't.
Honestly most of the time you seem far from objective. Just the other day you compared your CR-V to a Hummer offroad and yesterday you said Honda never made a bad handling car.....I mean come on.
Back to the Austrian content, according to this mornings Flint Journal the engine comes from Austria. The article said the engine is also in the Volt.
In reply to Cotton:
Um, I was kidding about the CRV Hummer thing. And I guess the other depends on how you define handling, and maybe I didn't explain that well. Sure, no Honda is the best handling car, but really, what model would you say is bad handling? Generally they are tight handling, very predictable vehicles.
I don't think having an opinion makes you un-objective, as long as your opinion is rooted in sound reasoning. Objectivity is a requirement in my job (R&D testing). I am as objective as I possibly can be while I'm testing, or in this case evaluating, anything. But afterwards I have to make a conclusion, and if that conclusion doesn't agree with yours, that doesn't make me un-objective.
Here's some further proof that just maybe I'm more objective than some others here that make unsubstantiated claims:
http://www.truedelta.com/fuel_economy.php?stage=powertrains&brand=Chevrolet&modelCode=50&session_code=
http://www.truedelta.com/fuel_economy.php?stage=powertrains&brand=Honda&modelCode=109&session_code=
Bobzilla wrote: I've seen a couple dozen K20's self destructed. Does that mean that all K20s are junk?
Of course not.
My point is, when you put an engine that is not tolerant of slack maintenance in a "throwaway" car, bad things will happen.
Hondas typically aren't treated like throwaway cars. Cobalts are.
Knurled wrote:Bobzilla wrote: I've seen a couple dozen K20's self destructed. Does that mean that all K20s are junk?Of course not. My point is, when you put an engine that is not tolerant of slack maintenance in a "throwaway" car, bad things will happen. Hondas typically aren't treated like throwaway cars. Cobalts are.
You'd be suprised.... apparently the new 3.7V6 can't go more than 14k miles without an oil change.
In reply to bravenrace:
Ahahahahaha. What kind of bogus website is that? Some of the stats are off the chart/being crushed by it. Considering how few knowledgeable car people I know, I sincerely distrust anybody to accurately be able to guesstimate their fuel mileage and report it without bias to a site like that!
In reply to HiTempguy:
Well then can you point me to a better source for the same information? BTW, that's not where I typically not one of my references for this information, but I heard it was pretty accurate and didn't have time to do anything else. Everything I saw that I had experience with was right in the ballpark so I used it. I'm certainly open to anyone providing verifiably more accurate information.
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