China is taking the fun out of my hobby.

03Panther said:

In reply to Adrian_Thompson (Forum Supporter) :

Once the soci0-political aspects are removed, most (notice I did not say all) of the stuff being made in china is not top shelf quality. As said, they CAN make good stuff, they they just (mostly) don't. It is correct to say that they do not bear 100% of the blame. But it would also be incorrect to say they share NONE of the blame. 
beyond that, it gets too political for this forum, so I'll leave it there. 

Excellent point, I agree.  But I stand by the statement that in general we need to look at ourselves as the root cause of the issues.

Tom Suddard said:

Have you tried going to your local dealer (or the online equivalent) for parts? Wanting to buy parts from a retail parts counter and wanting to buy quality parts are mostly mutually exclusive these days. 

All the Honda parts I've bought from the Honda dealer have worked great and had "made in Japan" stamped on them. 

May work for some foreign cars (some of those are more "made in USA than the big three, but that's an entirely different discussion) but don't expect better quality for three times the price from a US made dealer counter. A very large % of the time, ya ain't gonna get it 

And many of us cannot afford to gamble with 3 times the cost, to find out we got the same junk as the aftermarket, and cannot return it. 

In reply to Adrian_Thompson (Forum Supporter) :

Sincere question  on the "ourselves"...

do you mean society as a whole, or just us spoiled "first world" ones? Or just us spoiled 'Muricans?

Since I have experienced the OPs pain, many times, I'm not sure how some of us fit in to that. 

I would say "the people the products are aimed at".

I can tell you that a lot of consumers don't care about the engineering behind a product. All they want is to get it for a couple of pennies above the cost of the raw materials to make it. It's really frustrating if your goal is to make quality parts with solid engineering and support.

In reply to Keith Tanner :

I can commiserate with your pain as well, as it is well know you are not one of the non ethical folks that many of us feel are the cause of the pathetic quality problem. We know your parts are gonna cost more and provide quality (at least the folks in this conversation do) and many of the type that are involved in this conversation have proved that trust by buying from ya! I don't have anything to put your parts on, but appreciate the the fact that shops like yours exist! 

But I am concerned with the responses to the OP, saying he (and anyone that feels like him) is taking the easy way in putting the blame on china. Sure there is more too it than just china, but...
I personally do not agree with a lot of the socio-political views that came out after he complained, and only responded to A. T. for  that one clarification; (and ment to thank to A. T. for the polite response to my post)

if it truly means "the people auto parts maintenance products", that everyone on this site. And that's too general to discuss at all in this thread. 
If is all products, would than not be all people? And again, WAY out of scope of the OPs post 

I'm curious where you guys are finding these knowledgeable counter people at the local auto parts store????  

Honestly, FM and Goodwin are probably one of the reasons I want another Miata.  If anyone ever sees a good deal on an NB, I'm interested.  There is also K Miata.  Miata's have some of the best vendor support of any car. 

My concern is everytime an OP here has a bad experience with a part from China, some just want to blame the OP.  There is plenty of blame to go around, and plenty of bad parts to receive it.  The solution is obvious, but far more difficult to accomplish and most don't have the resolve to do it. 

I've seen this happen twice in a few months, and I'm sure it will happen again soon.  OP buys part.  Part is junk.  Part is probably made in China.  Some on forum blame OP.  That won't solve the issue no matter how much anyone believes it is true, or even if it is true. 

I will happily pay more for a quality part.  Can someone please show me where on the box it says "this part is real quality" and where on the other boxes it says "this part is poor quality."  I'm not a mechanic, I don't work in a shop, I don't know which are good and which are bad.  There's no way I will believe that higher price is a good indicator of quality.  I've read too much (usually on GRM) about the shenanigans of switching boxes or labels or whatever; I can't trust that the "gold" parts are better than the "silver" or the "value" parts at the parts store.  I understand the complaint that the consumer buys on price but it is usually the only verifiable piece of information the consumer has.  "It >definitely< costs more but it only >might< be better quality" is not a good gamble.  If "Buy OEM" at dealership prices that are 400% higher, well, it's difficult for me to believe that it costs 4X more to make a quality product.  The problem with "buy OEM" at online prices means you don't know if you're getting real-deal OEM parts or aftermarket "OEM supplier" or what.  And then there is the counterfeiting problem.

I >want< to give my business to the good guys and drive the bad guys out of business.  And I will pay [what I feel is] a reasonable premium for a premium part.  Just give me the quality information to go with the price information so I can make that decision.

And that is a pipe dream.  So the consumer errs on the one thing he knows for sure, price.

I'm super-excited to buy Hyundai oil filters online by the case and the price is very reasonable.  I wish I could do that for wheel bearings and stuff.

This afternoon the starter bendix is hung up and would not retract. Its going to have to come off again.

In reply to DWNSHFT :

Well stated. To add to it, (and it is largely ignored by the type that blame anyone complaining about poorly made parts) oem replacement parts are rarely the same quality parts that came on the car. For example, Hyundai does not make any oil filters. The company they bought from to put on the engine put in the car you bought, is prolly not the company that is selling them filters to sell over the dealer counter to you. May be the same quality, may be better, or may be worse. Murphy Says - prolly worse. An oil filter not quite as good as the first one replaced, might shorten the life of the engine a bit, but other factors will prolly effect the life sooner than a cheap filter. Not so, with say, a starter. If the op paid the outrageous markup for a starter for a 6.5 at a gm dealer I'll eat my hat if it is different that what he bought!

Keith Tanner said:

I would say "the people the products are aimed at".

I can tell you that a lot of consumers don't care about the engineering behind a product. All they want is to get it for a couple of pennies above the cost of the raw materials to make it. It's really frustrating if your goal is to make quality parts with solid engineering and support.

I actually deal with this in reverse. As a purchasing supervisor for a public entity we've been seeing an uptick in protests on our bid & RFP awards. The argument tends to be the same "but our price is lower". Even after carefully explaining that we buy on fit for purpose and cost is only one of several factors suppliers still think "low bid" should trump all. 

So I wanted to lost this separately from my other posts.

There is no nice way to say it and this is strictly from a professional standpoint but what we consider an ethical standard does not apply in China (this is especially true of the government) Things like stealing intellectual property are justified becuase the ends justify the means. 

Before anyone gets in a huff about the above statement keep in mind there are professional publications solely dedicated to reporting companies in China that pedal substandard and knock off / counterfeit.

Yes there are other counties that have had a rash of this but not at the level we see out of China.

In their defense and as has been posted we consumers are partially to blame for this. They are simple filling a nitch.

AnthonyGS (Forum Supporter) said:

The solution is obvious, but far more difficult to accomplish and most don't have the resolve to do it.  

legit question here, from a lifetime blue collar guy:

   What is your obvious solution to most maintenance parts available becoming worse and worse quality? 
  Definitely not obvious to me, but I can certainly be somewhat thick headed. 
I'm not sure, in the day to day blue collar world (I know not all on here are there) that a lack of resolve is really cause. 
 

In reply to Tom1200 :

To add to: filling a nitch, does not excuse the lack of ethics (and I know you are not saying it does) on the corruption in china, or the corruption here that supports it. And despite consumers being hard to please (I want Cheap, Fast AND Good!!!) the consumers greed, is really not the greed that caused the snowball. 

bearmtnmartin (Forum Supporter) said:

This afternoon the starter bendix is hung up and would not retract. Its going to have to come off again.

Side post. 
I had a sticking solenoid on my 03 F350... with only 133K miles, and an easy life. Guess what? Ford no longer puts the solenoid on the fender. Remember when guys that hopped up SBCs, and their starter mounted heat soak solenoids upgraded with ford parts ? Now ford puts it on the starter to fail from exhaust heat also! 
Oh, well. It's a pain to drop a perfectly good factory starter just to rebuild the internals of a solenoid, but ok... but wait! No rebuild parts available. Also NO Solenoid available.

Gotta buy the whole starter assembly. 
$265 for the cheapest "rebuilt" (read junk) from any parts chain. 

$285 for the cheapest aftermarket (read junk) from any parts chain. 
Around $600 for the so called OEM. But, wait for it... it's the same as a new aftermarket. 
Aftermarket performance sells some good quality upgrades, from 380 to well over 600, but I found (after driving with an intermittent starter for a few months) a source online with a good quality aftermarket upgrade (with no high dollar company speed shop sticker on it) for $80. Yes, you read that right $80. Looks exactly like one brand of 450 upgrade, but no sticker. Yes, both are made in china. Both seem to hold up to abuse much better than OEM. 
So, yea. Not buying it's the consumers fault.

Sorry bout the long read

In reply to 03Panther :

We are in agreement about the Chinese government's total lack of ethics.

As for the consumers fault I'm not sure fault is the right word. People want cheap goods, someone in business will oblige. What we got is cheaply made goods at a low price, that's the issue we are really talking about.

03Panther said:

AnthonyGS (Forum Supporter) said:

The solution is obvious, but far more difficult to accomplish and most don't have the resolve to do it.  

legit question here, from a lifetime blue collar guy:

   What is your obvious solution to most maintenance parts available becoming worse and worse quality? 
  Definitely not obvious to me, but I can certainly be somewhat thick headed. 
I'm not sure, in the day to day blue collar world (I know not all on here are there) that a lack of resolve is really cause. 
 

I'm a blue collar guy trapped in a white collar world since I left the Navy.  The root of the problem is the never ending quest to increase quarterly profits to please, banks, investors and stock holders.  It really is that simple.  Breaking that mentality is the hard part.
 

The fix is easy to know but super hard to implement.  Manufacturing needs to be done as close to the OEM as possible, by people that are paid well, trained well, and valued by their employer as people.  Those places are dying due to the quarterly profit model.  How many of our family run auto hobby businesses have been bought out by investing groups?  How many parts suppliers?  Heck all the old auto forums and magazines got bought out and absorbed to death too.  
 

We have restore our manufacturing base in the US and refuse to do business with anyone doesn't share our values...  we have to restore our values first though.  
 

The more I look around me the more I realize every major problem in our society is a symptom of greed and lack of basic value for our fellow humans.  The same arrogance, greed, and lack of humanity is the underlying cause of almost anything bad you can imagine.  Crappy auto parts are just another example that touches the users here more often.  
 

Now you have to get the people with the money to invest in a revival of quality manufacturing.  I don't see that ever happening due to greed though.  Most of the super wealthy think they need even more money, and more control, and that they know best.  
 

So given that there is only one solution, and that's education.  There is the root of all problems in our society, a lack of quality education for everyone.  
 

Sadly it's a top down problem, and those are the hardest to fix.  They are easy to identify if you look at it honestly though.

To solve this problem it will take action at the top or a unification of the working people.  Honestly, I see a low chance for either at this point.  
 

So the best we can do as auto hobbists is try to help one another and share our intel.  Blaming each other for the problem, doesn't help.  I buy AC Delco parts for my Crammit from rock auto, and various dealers all over the country.  I avoid Amazon, because I've gotten too much junk from them. Now their refund process has always worked, but it's not worth the effort.  For Subaru parts, I shop various dealers online.  I've been to both my local GM and Subaru dealers.  For filters, I stick to Wix.  I also buy from known hood vendors like FM when I had a Miata.  I buy used OEM stuff on forums, CL or eBay.  
 

So right now I have to navigate a world full of crappy parts to find stuff I think might work reasonably well for a fair price.  Until manufacturing in the US reverts back to a quality and people centric business model, this is where we are.  
 

Quality, price and speed......  pick two and the other is a given.  Once you throw greed, quarterly profit and a lack of humanity in the mix, all 3 are compromised.  That's where we are today.  
 

I've actually considered writing a book about engineering, quality, major accidents, and other things based on case studies, but I don't think anyone would care to read it.  Arrogance, greed, and a lack of humanity have caused numerous engineering disasters.  The shuttle disasters, the Pinto, Chernobyl, the Titanic, the Thresher, and others.  Crappy car parts are just another symptom of an age old problem. 
 

My stint in the auto business was interesting to say the least.  My stint in the oil business was also eye opening.  So was my short time in the food business.  Now I'm back in the energy generation business.  Problems in all of these businesses and my hobbies share more in common than they are different.  

03Panther said:

In reply to A 401 CJ :

People that have cut the Beemer filter, (made by Mahle) and the filter sold as a Mahle report that the filters are slightly different inside! So BMW does have them made to their specs. 
In the filter case, the difference is minor enough to not matter, but many OEM replacement parts are sourced from the lowest bid, and change often. Any guesses where to go looking for the lowest bidder?

Look at the box on your Mahle (or other 'German' filter) and see where it is actually made.  It really surprised me on the last several I've bought. I just buy Wix for everything now.

Tom1200 said:

There is no nice way to say it and this is strictly from a professional standpoint but what we consider an ethical standard does not apply in China (this is especially true of the government) Things like stealing intellectual property are justified becuase the ends justify the means. 

I'm sure they consider it an ethical standard just like American companies do.  But don't hold your head too high, they just choose to ignore that standard like a lot of American companies do.

I've been ripped off a half dozen times, every one of them by an American company, a few of which every person on this forum would know. I initially said something and appeared to be getting somewhere with it, but when they found out I was Canadian they all said the same thing. Oh, you're Canadian? Go berkeley yourself, because they knew my power was limited, and the effort would not likely justify the results.

It's part of being in business, and it's widespread. Nobody bitches about the Japanese now - they even embrace their products, but they were notorious for ripping off other's designs for a long time

bearmtnmartin (Forum Supporter) said:

This afternoon the starter bendix is hung up and would not retract. Its going to have to come off again.

I have had very good luck with the Tuff Stuff alternators and starters actually lasting.  They are built in USA. Currently both the van and MustangII have TuffStuff alternators.

Summit Linky

03Panther said:

bearmtnmartin (Forum Supporter) said:

This afternoon the starter bendix is hung up and would not retract. Its going to have to come off again.

Side post. 
I had a sticking solenoid on my 03 F350... with only 133K miles, and an easy life. Guess what? Ford no longer puts the solenoid on the fender. Remember when guys that hopped up SBCs, and their starter mounted heat soak solenoids upgraded with ford parts ? Now ford puts it on the starter to fail from exhaust heat also! 
Oh, well. It's a pain to drop a perfectly good factory starter just to rebuild the internals of a solenoid, but ok... but wait! No rebuild parts available. Also NO Solenoid available.

Gotta buy the whole starter assembly. 
$265 for the cheapest "rebuilt" (read junk) from any parts chain. 

$285 for the cheapest aftermarket (read junk) from any parts chain. 
Around $600 for the so called OEM. But, wait for it... it's the same as a new aftermarket. 
Aftermarket performance sells some good quality upgrades, from 380 to well over 600, but I found (after driving with an intermittent starter for a few months) a source online with a good quality aftermarket upgrade (with no high dollar company speed shop sticker on it) for $80. Yes, you read that right $80. Looks exactly like one brand of 450 upgrade, but no sticker. Yes, both are made in china. Both seem to hold up to abuse much better than OEM. 
So, yea. Not buying it's the consumers fault.

What is the consumers fault is walking into Autozone and saying "what is the absolute cheapest starter you have" and buying that one.  And just swapping it if its DOA.  Or beating it into place with a hammer if it doesnt fit.  When instead, the consumer should say "no, berkeley this company.  Give me my money back, I'll take it elsewhere from now on."

I do wish there were a better forum for consolidating feedback on items like this so other potential buyers could be warned.

Also, note that that same consumer likely owns stock in one or more of the companies profiting from this.

The success of Harbor Freight is emblematic of this. Once everyone buys the cheap things, the places selling moderately priced and good things have to pivot to that model to stay in business.

I wrote this a while back

https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/cheap-tools-race-bottom-brian-bassett/

I'm an engineer in the aviation industry and get to work with suppliers all over the world: US, Germany, Italy, Hungary, China, Tunisia, Singapore, Japan, Canada and more. The BIG issue with China, as previously stated, is you can't send anything to them you don't want ripped off. In my industry this means they generally only get the most basic of components and a lot parts are made only in the US due to export control law. But as others have pointed out made in China does not automatically mean lower quality. If that's what you believe I strongly recommend you avoid flying. Someone else already said it but they will make anything to the specifications you provide. Dimensions, material quality, durability - all of it will be made to your requirements with no questions asked. Strangely, I find our European suppliers, especially German, to be similar. "But the drawing shows this" or "this is the defined process" are common responses I get if a problem comes up. Most often this means there's an error in the specification or something changed at a lower level of assembly. The only difference I see is the Germans expect everything to be correct whereas the Chinese assume it. What I like most about US and Canadian suppliers is there's a level of intuition involved. If something starts to drift or something doesn't look right they'll stop and ask questions. I've found Japanese Engineering companies and suppliers the most difficult to work with. The suppliers have German-levels of stubbornness when it comes to process changes/improvements and their Engineering often specifies requirements well in excess of what's required, or even possible, for a specific application. There're pros and cons to all ideologies. The thing with China is you can almost always get the desired level of quality for a lower cost. As mentioned above, this is more an ethical thing than anything else.

Mr. Peabody said:

It's part of being in business, and it's widespread. Nobody bitches about Japanese companies but they were notorious for ripping off others designs for a long time

I think if you look back at history, that's how a lot of nations improved their economy. Often, the copycat ended up surpassing the original. For example, "Made in Germany" was introduced as a derogatory mark in Britain after some of the local industries (IIRC it was knife/tableware manufacturers) lobbied Parliament for it because ze Germans would copy and hallmark knifes as they came from Sheffield. Oddly enough, these days there is more of a knife making industry left in Solingen where those shenanigans started than in Sheffield.

None of this is an excuse, but it's been going on for a long time.

infernosg said:

I've found Japanese Engineering companies and suppliers the most difficult to work with. The suppliers have German-levels of stubbornness when it comes to process changes/improvements and their Engineering often specifies requirements well in excess of what's required

Tangent.  But man I wish I could give this 10000 likes. 
 

I was having issues with impeller wheels spinning on the shafts for heavy duty turbos in the high up applications.  We had two suppliers,  the American supplier no spinning. The Japanese supplier spinning.  Long story short the drawing specified only a Top limit on the ra but not a bottom limit. As in we said you can't make this surface rougher than this but you could make it a mirror finish and be to print. The Americans set their machines to make the min acceptable finish and went with it, minimizing machine time.  The Japanese nearly polished the thing.  No reason, just be user they could.  When they figured low we had a problem. They sent 4 executives to meet with 25 year old me to tell me how i was wrong. Fun meeting. 
 

Anyways. I updated the print with a min required surface finish and specified a waviness.  No more issues