Chracteristics of a good snow car (not a what car thread)

First car was an XJ, and it was obviously the best car (ok, SUV...) for snow I've ever had.

I really enjoyed my SR5 RWD Corolla in the snow though. Even on JUNK dry rotted bald skinny tires. Steering with the throttle made it VERY easy to move around in the white death. Only got stuck once. In my driveway. But i rocked it out so I dont count it...

My civic wasnt TOO bad. When I owned the stock skinny OEM wheels it did fairly well. Just use the handbrake or left foot brake when necessary. I think it was a snowplow a lot of the time though because it was much much lower before.

I think the key to driving in the snow no matter what your driving is to just drive cautiously. Be aware of other drivers. Sure everyone hoons around every once in a while... Just have to be careful when you do lol

rwd with snows. preferably caprice wagon. a 91-96 wagon with snows is unstoppable and has taken me past many ditched 4x4 suv's

I'm pretty happy w/my SE-R. FWD, LSD, Six Speed (so picking the right gear to go or dropping gear to gear to slow down is easy) and some no name snows. The only thing it really lack is weight. It gets shoved around in the deep stuff b/c doesn't break 3K even with me in it.

My favorite winter car was a 1984 RX7 GSL (limited slip) with skinny 13" Hakkapeliitta snow tires. Balanced and tossable but with control.

My preferance is FWD, studded snows, stick, light weight, and no nanny controls. In that order.

This combo has worked for me for 7 winters of 30 mile back road commuting in upstate NY.

kazoospec wrote: I'm pretty happy w/my SE-R. FWD, LSD, Six Speed (so picking the right gear to go or dropping gear to gear to slow down is easy) and some no name snows. The only thing it really lack is weight. It gets shoved around in the deep stuff b/c doesn't break 3K even with me in it.

Mostly agree. With a small light car, I prefer a manual tranny in snow. Good (and narrow) tires and good weight balance are key.

I've the exact same weight issues with my car.

patgizz wrote: rwd with snows. preferably caprice wagon. a 91-96 wagon with snows is unstoppable and has taken me past many ditched 4x4 suv's

One of my best was an 86 Caprice with posi.

One of the more compelling factors in snow performance is the weight of the vehicle vs with width of the tires. Light car plus wide tires equals snowshoes. You ride on top and have a terrible time getting traction. Heavy car plus skinny tires equals hello pavement.

Many argue that FWD is superior in snow. IMHO, those people have fallen for the propaganda solicieted by Lee Iacocca and the K-car. Snow performance is a function of being able to get moving, being able to maximize traction on both axis positive and negative, and how the vehicle reacts when traction is lost.

I personally prefer RWD because it separates the drive wheels from the steering wheels. If you lose traction with the front wheels in a FWD car, you also loose steering. Try it in a parking lot some snowy day. Drive along in a straight line, floor the pedal to make it lose traction, and you can turn lock to lock without appreciably affecting the direction of the car.

I would list these factors as my choices for snow vehicles:
- RWD or AWD. not 4wd or FWD
- automatic (for the elasticity of control you typically have over the application of torque to the wheels)
- relatively skinny tires so that the contact patch is oriented longitudinally to the car.
- no traction control... at least not until they make it better.

I had nothing but RWD Swedish snowmobiles in my arsenal for 20 years, but last year I got a Volvo S80 AWD. It's almost unbelievable how much easier it is to get going (especially from a stop on an icy uphill stretch.) AWD keeps it going straight, too. The only thing I truly miss is hanging the tail out through the turns - the best I can do with the AWD is push it into a 4-wheel drift (not easy to do with TC-nannying.)

A RWD on good snows with a locker is big fun and surprisingly capable in anything except a snow drag race.

curtis73 wrote: Many argue that FWD is superior in snow. IMHO, those people have fallen for the propaganda solicieted by Lee Iacocca and the K-car.

+1

The right tires can turn the worst snow car into something that'll outrun the toughest AWD SUV on its OEM tires. I've gotten some really funny looks driving a Miata through a snowstorm, but with good tires it was really easy to drive. All the characteristics that make a Miata great in the dry applies to the snow, with the notable exception of its low ground clearance.

I've only had my 91 Sentra SE-R out in the slick stuff once so far, but I was quite impressed with it. Not so easy to swing the back around, but the LSD really helped the car get up and go. It's almost as good as AWD - as good as it can be without a second pair of wheels helping you go.

I loved my RT4WD Civic wagon in the snow, but it wasn't quite as fun to drive as the Sentra or Miata the rest of the year. I keep saying my next winter beater will be an AWD Impreza, but then other cars (Civic, Sentra, the $400 SW2 I ran last winter then sold for $800 in the spring) keep falling into my lap. :)

EVERY CAR STOPS THE SAME IN SNOW!!!!

The reason of caps is because i find it funny every single year no matter where i am (back in maine for this winter) there is all ways someone in a ditch and their vehicle usually has 4WD or AWD.

Granted AWD is awesome in the snow for getting started and keeping going but if you live in a flat state it is not going to help out too much overall as opposed to FWD with some heft and skinny tires.

I learned to drive on a 93 mazda B2200 2.3 5sp. RWD and with about 7-10 cinder blocks over the wheels that thing (as long as you kept it going up the hills) was just about the best combo for it all.

In short RWD if you have no where to go but want to have fun, FWD for the cheap bastards who cant afford AWD, AWD if you actually like getting to work on time (pending you don't drive like a berkeleying shiny happy person)

JtspellS wrote: EVERY CAR STOPS THE SAME IN SNOW!!!! The reason of caps is because i find it funny every single year no matter where i am (back in maine for this winter) there is all ways someone in a ditch and their vehicle usually has 4WD or AWD.

I'd venture to say that this is not true....the law of momentum would suggest that, assuming equal tires, a compact is going to stop alot faster than an SUV....or a Caprice. The reason so many SUVs/4x4s are in ditches is because of several factors:

Driver thinks they are unstoppable (this goes for most suburbanites in snow in SUVs)

In cornering, there is much more mass going sideways so vehicle is more likely to slide farther. Same with braking.

Most modern SUVs have very wide stock tires. Our 4Runner has 265-width all-terrains stock. They suck in the snow. My old XJ was awesome in snow with its near-stock sized BFG A/Ts. But the next year when it had 31's in the same tires, it was dreadful and stopping was more like sledding. Skinny tires are key.

And yeah, plenty of subies and evos in ditches primarily because they're driven by younger guys who are berkeleying around too much.

It all boils down to having the right tire for your area in conditions you will find yourself having to drive in.

Too aggressive, and you may get tire-induced wander or excessive road noise ; not arrgessive enough, and you've got problems with control over the vehicle. It all boils down to how well those small 4 contact patches, well, contact.

For example, with the exception of last winter, which was snow-crazed here along the Ct shore, we don't need aggresive tires for daily driving in snow. A good all year round tire was fine. ON those crazy snowing days, let the plows do the work, call in, delay or don't go to work. For those who absolutely, positively have to be at work, then go pessemistic, and get an aggresice-tread winter tire, and it'll be money well spent.

And don't drive like a shiny happy person in traffic. Away from traffic, where you know the possible consequences of Bloomquist-type driving, you're on your own.

Agreed, the average person doe not in any way need a car with AWD. More maintenance and weight to lug around. More profit for the auto companies. It's become a buzz-word, like FWD was when it was introduced to the masses back in the '80s.

This from a person who owned one of the first road-going Quattros. Blast to drive, but the average person does not need AWD. For those of us on the site, well....My fastest time down Mulholland drive was in that car.

Manual transmission, limited slip and skinny snowtires.The best I have had are 3 A2 GTIs, Volvo 242, Rx-7 and Miata. I hope the Rx-8 joins the list. For 2-3 feet of snow the f-100 is effective but it sucks on plowed roads.

pilotbraden wrote: Manual transmission, limited slip and skinny snowtires.The best I have had are 3 A2 GTIs, Volvo 242, Rx-7 and Miata. I hope the Rx-8 joins the list. For 2-3 feet of snow the f-100 is effective but it sucks on plowed roads.

My SVT Contour with Blizzacs and a Quaiffe was great...
My X-Type on the same tires pretty much goes anywhere.
Again, ground clearance CAN be an issue if roads aren't plowed - I spent six hours digging out an entire STREET because the town of Cohasset refused to plow the street I was on and I had to get to work.

first and foremost, FOUR dedicated snow tires of the new designs. People seem to forget that all four wheels need traction. There are a lot of pros and cons, FWD,RWD,AWD RWD with an automatic tend to push the front wheels when trying to turn or stop. FWD,AWD do not have this problem. My ZX2SR with four Blizzaks would go places where my Liberty had to be put into 4wd. It was really scitish(sp) in rwd. Now I am waiting to see what my 2011 Fiesta does in the slippery stuff and what effect traction and stability have.

irish44j wrote: I'd venture to say that this is not true....the law of momentum would suggest that, assuming equal tires, a compact is going to stop alot faster than an SUV....or a Caprice.

Well yes a compact will have less stopping distance over all but people fail to realize that it is still going to take longer to stop over all.

Given no traffic and maintained roads i would have a FB with winter tires and all would be well with the world

HOTLINK!!!

JtspellS wrote: Given no traffic and maintained roads

clearly you don't live in this area....

the only time I get the roads to myself is DURING the snowstorms, lol

I'll go out and say it should have the right balance of weight.

I used my MKIII Jetta for years, moved to my last Scirocco, dropped a good 600 lbs of curb wieght and using the same wheels/tires, and it felt a lot squirrelier.

There's also something to be said for the right tire/wheel combo.

The Jetta setup had 15x6.5's wearing 185/55/15 Performance Blizzaks. Traded up for 14x6 175/65/14 Conti Studless tires and it was far more sure footed.

Been said before, but I will say it again.. SNOW TIRES trumps all.

First car that I drove in the winter was a 1991 Ford Aerostar 2wd automatic. regular all seasons it could lump along ok, but could get stuck if you didnt watch it. The next winter I had studded snow tires on the rear only. It could go through anything, but turning and stopping were problematic.

In the meantime I have driven a good crossection of vehicles in the snow (various subarus, 4wd explorer, 91 pontiac grandam, e30). While the 4wd/awd helps to get going from a stop, it dosent help stopping in the least.

Yesterday I drove my miata up to my friends house to change wheels/tires from RE11's to General Altimax's. There was a half inch of snow on the ground and the miata was NOT doing well. It took 4 attempts to get up his driveway, would lock the brakes and slide down his driveway with little/no provocation.

Leaving with the snow tires (no studs), there was another inch of snow on the ground. The miata was confident, could stop in a heartbeat, was able to accelerate abruptly without spinning the wheels (no LSD or ABS in my miata). I was able to drive home through the unplowed roads at normal paces in a car that had just hours before been borderline undriveable.

Snowtires dont just help you to accelerate, but to turn/stop as well. Get snowtires on there and it wont really matter that much what you are driving.

Anything with Nokian Hakkapeliittas on it. Except my lowered CRX with 185/60-14 Hakkas (should have gone narrower, but they were on clearance). In fresh show it's unstoppable. Its ability to shed speed rapidly on any surface is very reassuring and impressive, but forward progression can be a challenge. On ice or slush it's downright frightening. The 8" of snow we got in 2 days here was a great trial by fire for my first winter in the CRX, considering I drive for a living.

Rufledt wrote: And +1 for surprizing fun of a full-size van, but i kinda wish mine had a locking diff and a stick shift, but i'm not sure econolines came with a stick. i wonder how i could fit one in there...

Yes, they did. My first excursion driving on snow was in a 1978 Econoline with a 300 I6 and a 5 speed. It had all season radials on it and really didn't drive any different than it did on asphalt. I had my drivers license for less than 6 months at the time and almost never seen snow much less driven on it. If a boy from the coast can learn how to drive on snow in the mountains without bending any sheet metal, an E-Series van must do pretty good on the white stuff.

My dad swears that his '82 Rabbit diesel was the best snow car he ever owned. I have no problem believing it...engine over the front wheels, gas tank over the back wheels, stick-shift, FWD, really narrow tires, tall gearing with no horsepower, mushiest suspension in history.

Other than that, my Saturn with snow tires makes people in SUVs look silly all the time.

In ice racing with unstudded (Blizzaks) snows, FWD has proven to be superior to RWD. And AWD is faster only because they have better traction coming out of the corner. They don't corner any faster than a FWD car.

a wagoneer