Pete Gossett said:So that left a significant portion of the US population with the stigma that anything foreign was junk, which didn’t really begin to change much(from what I personally saw) until well into the 1990’s.
Maybe with European cars, but that perception started changing with Japanese cars in the 70s, and by the 90s, it was accepted truth that Japanese cars were the most reliable on the market.
alfadriver said:Big news on the local morning news that Fiat-Chrysler and PSA signed a 50-50 merger agreement to make the 4th largest car company.
I'm still digesting this, as it makes two main European car makers- VW and this new company. GM isn't there, and Ford's sales can't match this company.
Fiat really hasn't penetrated the US, and Chrysler just plods along mostly with Jeep. Will PSA bring cars here?
And I have no real feel for how this company is doing in China.
alfadriver said:02Pilot said:To my mind, the best outcome here is that the Peugeot, Citroen, and Opel lines are harvested for the best of what they produce and it's used to reinvigorate the Chrysler lineup. Sure, I'd love to see more Euro brands selling here, but given the Fiat/Alfa experience thus far has reinforced the idea that Americans are put off by reputations earned decades ago, it seems unlikely to end well.
I recall the Dodge had at least one French-derived (Renault, I believe) platform in their lineup some time ago: the Dodge Monaco/Eagle Premier (remember Eagle?). My mother had one. It wasn't a bad car at all, but the transmission was not fond of remaining functional and intact.
That was supposed to happen with Fiat platforms. They even tried- the same platform for the European modern Giulietta (I think) was the Dodge Dart. I'm not sure that Chrysler will keep trying that idea.
To illustrate the kind of things we deal with with respect to the Fiat-designed Dodges.
Had a '13 Dart in earlier this week with a wiper issue. Wiper switch was bad. The aftermarket did pick it up but one of the switches was $400 more than the other. I do not know if this was $100 vs $500 or $800 vs $1200. From the dealer the switch is on national backorder and is only serviced as a steering column assembly.
I sense a lot of not-invented-here-ism at FCA, along with Fiat marking things up before sending them to Dodge. Things like $500 stabilizer links (only stocked as a sway bar assembly, and you have to remove the links to thread the bar into the car) and such.
They made a two-door Morris Marina?
Chrysler Jeep Dodge must be both really hot and really crazy because everyone thinks they can save them but no one can.
Robbie said:Chrysler Jeep Dodge must be both really hot and really crazy because everyone thinks they can save them but no one can.
More than anything it's funny how history repeats itself.
When Chrysler bought AMC they were mainly buying commercial vehicles, Jeep and the dealer network.
Now, PSA (who has the smaller balance sheet but is actually the stronger/more successful company by most metrics) is getting the same thing from FCA; commercial vehicles, Jeep, and the dealer network.
The media really tries to emphasize that FCA is the bigger company but I'm not sure that's the key takeaway...when you realize that PSA has the most to gain and Tavares is the one tapped to run this whole thing it makes you mull over who this is really a power play for.
I don't think we'll see any real change in the U.S. regarding new models. The American public has already shown that they prefer SUV's and minivans over sedans and hatchbacks. Dodge/Chrysler doesn't offer anything anymore that's smaller than a minivan. Not sure if they don't have anything because they can't develop it (they did have the Dart) or were there too few buyers to continue to offer anything?
Now, if we hit another gas crisis, that could change. The crunch of the 70's were a big reason why Honda and Toyota and others boomed.
-Rob
In reply to rob_lewis :
Before Sergio's passing he axed the Dart and 200 because their lack of competitiveness in the segment didn't justify the expenditure to keep building them. Ultimately, it was the right call at the time - they were among the most mediocre cars in the segment.
Spoiler alert though: PSA has a CRAPLOAD of SUVs and cute utes ripe for the picking. I can't imagine it'll be long at all before we see these with a Dodge badge slapped on them.
https://www.peugeot.co.uk/suv-range/
https://www.citroen.co.uk/new-cars-and-vans/citroen-family/suvs
Adrian_Thompson said:1988RedT2 said:If you throw a cinder block into a lake it will sink. Tying several cinder blocks together will not change this outcome.
Until the pile is big enough to break the surface?
Serious point. I've lived here for 25 years. I still don't fully understand the American perception that all European brands are basically unreliable. I think it must be something to do with how people over here buy, use and service vehicles. Yes, Fiat, Lotus and some others were known as unreliable, but your average British, French or German cars were just cars. People bought them, drove them and kept them for years. I'm not talking wealthy people who could pay for everything, I'm talking normal middle class and blue collar people. The cars didn't cost a fortune to buy, own and maintain, but as soon as I moved here everything British or French was seen as a ticking time bomb. I still don't get it. And before people start making Lucas prince of darkness jokes, 90% of those can be cured by keeping the fuel filter clean and maintaining your points and condenser. Just don't tell people as it ruins a perfectly good meme industry. Yes your average 70's LBC car has issues, but let's talk about your average malaise era land yatch with miles and miles of old vacuum lines under the hood. I'd wager they were no better.
I've only lived here coming on ten years, but I agree.
I sometimes get the impression that some of it has to do with the cars here living longer with potentially less thorough servicing than in most of Europe. The fact that your car has to have a safety inspection (and these days, an emissions test) annually or bi-annually in a lot of European countries kinda gets rid of the scenario of nobody looking at the brakes and the check engine light for the past 15 oil changes.
One thing most US car owners seem to be a lot better at are oil changes. Quick lube places aren't really that common in Europe, so most people tend to take their car to a mechanic and have a service done that includes an oil change rather than just an oil change.
Re the merger, one big issue that has been pointed out for a while in (at least) European papers is how far FCA is lagging behind the other big companies when it comes to hybrids and electric vehicles. Given that's where the future seems to lie right now, that's likely going to be a big issue for them going forward.
Are they now "too big to Fail " ?????
And can they make enough on the worldwide sale of Jeeps to keep this going ?
the older Euro cars died because of lack of service , driving longer distances and the heat in the Southwest ,
The French and Italian governments and unions will keep this going......
Last question ,
What will they serve for food in the factory "mess hall" ?
In reply to californiamilleghia :
Chrysler was already taken care of- the FCA merger was arranged.
In reply to BoxheadTim :
I think that coupled with Peugeot's head are the two things PSA's really getting out of the deal here- They're paying Tesla $2 billion in credits to offset that.
My question is what brands will be kept and which ones will die. Can't really comment on Citroen or Peugeot, but I think Fiat will get the axe since the 500L was one of the worst selling crossovers here in the States and I don't know of any other car they sell other than the stock 500. Vauxhall is all GM, so that's obvious. I see far more Alfa's than Maserati's, and Lancia only has *a* car that's a rebadge. On the American side, Chrysler is down to the Pacifica only, so unless they turn it into their import/EV/luxury car brand I don't see it continuing.
So I say- My Deadpool is Chrysler, Fiat, Lancia, Vauxhall and Maserati. I think we're also gonna see the Dodge lineup finally updated, as every car in its over 10+ years old and doesn't fit some current safety standards (Durango, especially).
I partially agree about Adrian's story on american dealers and maintenence- If there's one thing we can do here in the states, it's hold a grudge against somthing that we think has wronged us.
In reply to californiamilleghia :
IIRC, PSA and Fiat are/were partially owned by their respective governments.
I cannot see Vauxhall or Lancia making it out of this alive. Shame that Lancia has turned into what it is today, Vauxhall is no loss at all. I can't see Maserati going away right away but I don't know about finacials and sales numbers there. Not sure about Chrysler or Dodge.
Jeep Curse still in effect.
I suspect that unless FIAT comes out with some new models, the won't make it much longer in the US. I do think the situation is likely a bit different in Europe, although there's a big move towards CUVs and the like over there, too. Lancia has been on life support for so long I wouldn't be surprised that they can't find the switch 
.
You're probably right about Vauxhall, although these days that's a rebadged Opel anyway.
Maserati is an interesting one - they're a bit of a halo brand (and I see a fair number of them around DC) so they may do some badge engineering for that. They kinda compete with BMW and Mercedes on the larger/more expensive sedans and coupes where Alfa has no presence. And they did axe the two door Giulias, so there is still a niche for halo cars.
In reply to Knurled. :
FCA has no gov't ownership anymore, but rather curiously, FIAT's final governmnent shareholder was actually Libya(!) who was bought out in 1992 thanks to pressure from the Pentagon. Now it is just the Agnellis and a bunch of investment funds.
PSA is still 14% owned by the French government, with the other biggest shareholders being the Peugeot family and Dongfeng Motor Group (also at 14% each).
alfadriver said:mr2s2000elise said:3rd largest car company, not 4th
News is reporting 4th.
(why can't I paste a link? Forbs, Detroit News, etc all reporting 4th)
The combined company will generate revenue of nearly €170 billion ($189 billion) annually, which is projected to be the third-most of any automaker.
https://www.npr.org/2019/12/18/789250024/fiat-chrysler-and-peugeot-sign-50-50-merger-deal
Pete Gossett said:In reply to Adrian_Thompson :
Simple answer - from the dawn of the Model T well into the 1990’s most people had their cars repaired at either the dealership where they bought it, or the local gas station mechanic. Those gas station mechanics didn’t have the benefit of trade schools or factory certifications - at most they had an auto mechanics class or 2 in high school. So anything “furrin” that showed up was outside of their scope of knowledge, without any easily reached resources to help them learn about it. This is especially true once you got outside of the big cities - at least in many cities there were a handful of specialists who’d learned & worked on foreign cars in their homeland. Out in the more rural areas though that rarely happened.
This. Anything domestic that was oddball (early CVTs, for example) were also outside the realm of easy reparability, too.
In reply to Adrian_Thompson :
If you want to understand, go find a nice 1974 Fiat 128, a Renault Caravelle, a Triumph Herald,and a Cutlass. Then drive from Milwaukee to Los Angeles and back in each. Then, drive each of them through Saskatchewan in February. Bring your ski pants.
North America just has different needs. There was absolutley a prejudice against imports, mostly gone by the 80's, but... I worked in an Import shop in the first half of the 80's, and we once had a Datsun B210 towed over 100 miles to the shop because the condenser wire had rubbed through, and the car had no spark. Small town mechanic: "I don't know how them furrin cars work!" Really? You don't know how ignition points work, and that a grounded wire will kill stuff?
And, we (Me specifically) have long memories. I still don't trust Audi because of the 100LS I had to deal with in 1981, and the 5000 sedans that were, shall we say, less than robust.
All I wanna know is, after all of this...
Will Dodge finally update the Challenger/Charger chassis?
Watching snips of episodes od the guy currently swapping Hellcat bits (engine/trans, interior/exterior) on to I believe an '06 Magnum and just about everything fits exactly the same. He might need to drill an extra hole here or there, but for the most part, all the same mounting points.
In reply to Streetwiseguy :
Someone was telling me that Fiat had great engineering and a horrible service and parts network, while VW had horrible engineering but great service and parts network, and that is why VW managed to sell the heck out of aircooleds that needed regular deep maintenance.
Given that the US's strength is in our logistics, something we gained out of necessity when trying to have an economy that spanned a huge continent, it makes sense that to make it in the US, one needs strong logistics, which VW had, and still has.
Fiat, meanwhile, had, and still has, craptacular parts and service. Did we ever get a windshield for the mini-Promaster?
A new awd Magnum would be a nice thing to resurrect.
I never could understand the reluctance to work on a"furrin" cars. Those guys were grease mechanics, not real mechanics.
The pistons went up and down, the valves opened and closed. The spark plugs sparked.
iceracer said:I never could understand the reluctance to work on a"furrin" cars. Those guys were grease mechanics, not real mechanics.
The pistons went up and down, the valves opened and closed. The spark plugs sparked.
Back in the day... the problem I remember my parents having more than once is just the tools. Metric vs Imperial made a HUGE difference between someone ham fisting a job and one doing their job.
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