ChumpCar/LeMon Budgeting, How and Hell are you guys getting it DONE!?!

Miatas,e30's, 944's....... You see them running in chump because of AIV. They don't care if you got it for free or paid $10k. You prove the value by providing 10 ads off the internet that average $500 for a comparable and running car. Performance parts ad value and anything over $500 value you're penalized laps.

I picked up a non running 97' miata ( no ecm) with turbo set up, springs,shocks,sway bars, roll bar, wheels, etc. etc. for a lil over the $500 budget and sold almost all the aftermarket parts to pay for the build. In the past 3 months I've collected 7 of the 10 ads needed to prove the value.

If you want to pay $500 for a car and go race and be competitive, its not going to happen. You have to be resourceful. The cars are out there, but you have to keep looking, have cash in hand, and move fast to get the deals. Bartering and doing the work your self will keep build cost down. My teammates are all racers and have made contributions of spare equipment they have laying around ie: window net, harness, steering wheel etc. Also I have had many miatas so I have tons of spares( 3 motors, 2 transmissions, wheels) so using a car you are familiar with can help keep cost down.

If you want to race, have fun, AND be competitive, it's gonna take some work. Learn the rules of the series you want to race in and use them to your advantage.

HiTempguy wrote: Again, getting full gear (helmet, shoes, nomex, gloves, neck restraint device) for under $300 used is NOT common, no matter how you slice it. And also, if you've ever been in a relatively head on/frontal impact crash, you'd understand why a lot of series are requiring HANS devices. You can walk away from crashes that would normally snap your neck. I've been in them, the HANS is an amazing thing, I'd never race without one again!

There's no getting around the fact that a HANS is expensive, and that you may need to spend more to modify your helmet to work with the system. Rental HANS devices are available at some ChumpCar events, and if this fee is split between teammates it becomes affordable.

I purchased my safety gear between November and January. Here were my expenses:

$150 SA2010 helmet (new, ebay)
$131 SFI 3.2A/5 fire suit (new, gforce outlet)
$26 shoes (used, ebay)
$24 gloves (used, ebay)
$23.75 neck brace (used, ebay)
$17.50 nomex socks (new, ebay)
Track-Ready Total -- $372.25

Javelin wrote: Poopy, Again, I have no problems with used equipment. But with a 6-week-old at home, you better bet Mamabear is going to want me in good stuff with a HANS. Even sticking with an SA2005 helmet (that would expire in 4 years), I'd be looking at about $650 minimum for the full "get up". Again though, that's all new (and of course, can be used a bazillion times for the next umpteen years). I keep my eyes out on CL and local swap meets for gear

You're not listening. My suit is better at protecting me from fire than 90% of the suits worn at lemons. It cost a fraction of what people pay for new suits. If you want a hans device, split it between team members. Borrow a helmet.

Some people say "I can't I can't I can't" If you don't want to race, don't berkeleying race. What the berkeley do I care? But if you WANT to do it, you'll find a way, like I and plenty others have. The first time we won Lemons, mama was 5 months preggars. Sure am glad I didn't sit on the couch making excuses for why I couldn't go.

TxCoyote wrote: Poopyhead, I take exception to your comment about seat time and autocross being a waste of time. AutoX'ers almost always make great track drivers but the reverse is usually not true. Ask any pro racer, they will confirm it. I do both but I definitely feel the AutoX is much more difficult to do well. That said, I do love the seat time you get in a CrapCan event. Our team will be launching mid year as we get the car ready

Hence the smiley emoticon. Lighten up, Francis.

I'm with poopy. Quit making excuses, dammit. I ramrodded our first effort and more than once the other team members cussed me for getting them into this but now they can't imagine a year without LeMons.

Our first time around we had a free Thunderbird (sitting in a field, no 3rd gear in the transmission but we ran it anyway!), we got a JEGs cage (no longer legal, dammit), a bunch of Mustang 'phone dials', Falken RT615's, Performance Braking Z rated pads, rebuilt the stock brake hydraulics, gutted the car etc etc and IIRC with 5 drivers it came to ~$800 each including entry. Each driver provided their own gear, borrowed or bought and that's not in the $800.

Fried the 3.8 motor, so we found a 351W in a container for $100, the guy threw in a set of headers of unknown vintage. Got a trans, bellhousing etc from a 1968 Cougar for $150 and a Mustang pedal cluster off fleBay for $65. Car had a $150 residual. We bought two more tires and rims. IIRC we were around $600 each that year.

Then we got our current car, a 1986 Civic Si, bad TB and WP bent valves for $200, put another $200 in the motor (Rock Auto is your best friend!), we built our own cage, got a PILE of VW 'snowflakes' for free, the RT615's were $85 apiece. The first year was around $800 apiece (including entry and we had 5 drivers) but now it's lower because the car is built. This year it's around $525 apiece with 4 drivers, and again it includes the entry fee.

Quit screwing around and DO IT! There's nothing comparable. You will find yourself driving on the ragged edge with some POS and laughing your fool head off at something you just saw on course. Video it, something to show your grandkids!

Add me to the camp of "I'd rather buy a cheap SCCA or NASA race car and race" than build a crap can. Driving a POS on track is less fun than driving a POS on the street IMO.

For under $3k you can buy a first gen RX7 and run ITA with it. Or a Honda or other IT classed cars.

amg_rx7 wrote: Add me to the camp of "I'd rather buy a cheap SCCA or NASA race car and race" than build a crap can. Driving a POS on track is less fun than driving a POS on the street IMO. For under $3k you can buy a first gen RX7 and run ITA with it. Or a Honda or other IT classed cars.

For under $3k, you can also build a quick LeMons car and split the cost 6 ways. Out of curiosity (I really don't know) how much does the instruction/licensing cost to run in IT?

amg_rx7 wrote: Driving a POS on track is less fun than driving a POS on the street IMO.

A car that's a POS to look at is not the same as a POS to race. Try this full screen: youtu.be/iD7RcUhc9IM

Also, at every CMP lemons race I've been to, there are guys who will LEAVE THEIR CAR AT THE TRACK!!! We got a sweet front bumper for our crx off some mazda a few years ago. You could seriously pick up a free car with a cage, brakes, tires, needing a motor, because some dumbberkeley is too lazy, stupid, or fiscally irresponsible to tow their E36 M3 home.

Please call me a liar.

nderwater wrote:

amg_rx7 wrote: Driving a POS on track is less fun than driving a POS on the street IMO.

A car that's a POS to look at is not the same as a POS to race. Try this full screen: youtu.be/iD7RcUhc9IM

I had to watch this. I am impressed with how evenly matched some of these E36 M3boxes are and how decent the driving is. Some very good racecraft indeed!

Hence the smiley emoticon. Lighten up, Francis.

Couldn't resist the low hanging fruit

nderwater wrote:

amg_rx7 wrote: Driving a POS on track is less fun than driving a POS on the street IMO.

A car that's a POS to look at is not the same as a POS to race. Try this full screen: youtu.be/iD7RcUhc9IM

Any racing at Road Atlanta is good racing IMHO!

I know my odds of actually doing this race are reasonably thin, but one question- open v closed cars.

i know that a lot of the close cars have most of their windows out, but I'm looking at the top for comfort. this isn't about relative safety- both will have the full cage installed anyway....

What say you?

(if it's not obvious, my idea was an Alfa Spider, and I can re-claim a top i let someone borrow.)

alfadriver wrote: I know my odds of actually doing this race are reasonably thin, but one question- open v closed cars. i know that a lot of the close cars have most of their windows out, but I'm looking at the top for comfort. this isn't about relative safety- both will have the full cage installed anyway.... What say you? (if it's not obvious, my idea was an Alfa Spider, and I can re-claim a top i let someone borrow.)

We've raced without windows in our cars, but retained the windshield. I'm no expert, or ironman, but fatigue is a big deal. I'd want some form of windshield just to keep the wind off of you. With the firesuit, helmet and all, I don't notice not having windows. Can't comment on the top other than to say that our LTD has a giant hole cut out that we used for the fuel cell firewall.

I've seen a Miata race with a piece of sheet metal clamped to the top of the roll cage to cover the cockpit - seemed like a cheap, easy and removable solution. Guys with open tops and/or no windshields get pretty miserable if the weather gets things damp.

Not to steal your thread but does anyone know how to find a team? I am looking to do a chump car but don't have anyone to do it with.

Both Chump Car and LeMons have forums that have "help wanted" subsections. Check there to see if there are teams in your area, or maybe you can start your own.

poopshovel wrote:

amg_rx7 wrote: Add me to the camp of "I'd rather buy a cheap SCCA or NASA race car and race" than build a crap can. Driving a POS on track is less fun than driving a POS on the street IMO. For under $3k you can buy a first gen RX7 and run ITA with it. Or a Honda or other IT classed cars.

For under $3k, you can also build a quick LeMons car and split the cost 6 ways. Out of curiosity (I really don't know) how much does the instruction/licensing cost to run in IT?

SCCA licensing involves one weekend at the track. I forget the cost but it wasn't bad when I did it last year. Something like $300 if I remember correctly. Link to info here: http://www.scca.com/clubracing/content.cfm?cid=44466&tag=52

NASA licensing is different since you have to graduate through their HPDE program. How much it's going to cost you to do that is going to vary by driver. Link: http://www.nasaproracing.com/proracing/license.html

The difference compared to Chump or Lemons is that once you are licensed, you can run the rull race schedule for SCCA or NASA - which means about one race per month IN YOUR REGION. Neither Lemons or Chump run monthly races in the same region.

The level of competition and racing quality is much higher than Lemons or Chump. All you need is $50 to get a "license" to race a Lemons or Chump race. You get zero instruction on how to race safely. While there may be some good race drivers out there, there are also a lot of chumps who don't know the first thing about racing safely.

nderwater wrote:

amg_rx7 wrote: Driving a POS on track is less fun than driving a POS on the street IMO.

A car that's a POS to look at is not the same as a POS to race. Try this full screen: youtu.be/iD7RcUhc9IM

No. I mean a POS to race. I don't care what it looks like. :)

amg_rx7 wrote: SCCA licensing involves one weekend at the track. I forget the cost but it wasn't bad when I did it last year. Something like $300 if I remember correctly. Link to info here: http://www.scca.com/clubracing/content.cfm?cid=44466&tag=52 ... The level of competition and racing quality is much higher than Lemons or Chump. All you need is $50 to get a "license" to race a Lemons or Chump race. You get zero instruction on how to race safely. While there may be some good race drivers out there, there are also a lot of chumps who don't know the first thing about racing safely.

Just want to clarify that the above is not correct. First, it's about as much money for SCCA schools as it is to do a crapcan race (usually $500-600) and that doesn't include the car part of the equation at all, just the actual school. The car part requires you have your own race car or rent one, which is also another significant expense. If you want to race SCCA/NASA/whatever, it's great. If you want to satisfy a bucket list desire to race on X track or finish a YY hour race, then the licensing is a real PITA. Also, it's actually a little easier to get wheel to wheel licenses with the major organizations if you have a little experience with the crapcan racing, from the schools I've seen advertised lately.

Secondly, at least for Chump Car (not sure about the rest these days), you do have to attend a basic driver's school/safety training. This ensures that everybody at least knows the basic rules of the road.

Finally, saying "the level of competition and racing quality is much higher" sounds like a crock of poop, frankly. I've seen Spec Miata races with more flagrant contact and idiot moves in ten minutes than in a 24 hour crapcan race. You can pick out fantastic examples of horrible racing and great racing from any series, I assure you.

Bryce

jonnyd330 wrote: Not to steal your thread but does anyone know how to find a team? I am looking to do a chump car but don't have anyone to do it with.

There are a bunch of Tampa teams. We're in Clearwater and actually looking for a couple more members/drivers.

mguar wrote: In reply to doorman: Bargains, ain't gonna come lookin' for you.. workable cars will have 47 things wrong with them that you have to fix.. That means you'd better have someone who really knows how to wrench. Plus someone who knows how to race. (and race successfully)

Quoted for truth. Our $500 '94 Celica at first seemed like an excellent choice for Lemons. 5spd Toyota reliability. What could go wrong? Well, let me tell you...

Fixed oil leak, replaced clutch and axles, drove on the street for 1000+ miles with no problem. Lunched motor within first 45 minutes on the track. Pulled and rebuilt motor, now chasing little "issues" to get it back on track.

Have some people on your team that know what they are doing with tools. I have spent 6+ hours diagnosing and fixing issues caused by a team member who hooked up the battery backwards (blowing out countless electrical fuses, relays, etc.), mis-installed an exhaust pipe gasket, used a fine thread bolt with a coarse nut, mis-installed the power steering banjo fitting and installed injectors without noticing that all the seals were crap! Fixing other people's FU's is no fun.

My advice, by a car that is already prepped and seen some abuse. You don't care how it looks, only that it is safe and goes. If I were to do again I would go RWD if only for ease of pulling the motor, etc.

HiTempguy wrote: Yes, this is GRM, but that doesn't mean you need to be able to weld your own cage which is a HUGE undertaking no matter how simple you try and make it seem.

I can build a cage in a day. It's not that big a deal, and if welded with a stick machine can be done successfully, and safely by somebody who is not an expert welder.

Both of those series look expensive to me, but Lemons just looks retarded.

Name one other series in the world where a 24-hour endurance race can be completed for significantly under $1000 per driver. I'm not talking just entry fees, I'm talking buying the car, doing all the safety prep, running the car, feeding the crew, etc.

Lemons has a bit of a circus atmosphere but it keeps things in check. It defuses the hot heads and keeps contact down. They manage to put a mass of very mixed experience level drivers in extremely mixed class of cars and yet avoid serious incidents time and time again, so they're doing something right. Spec Pinata can't manage close to the same record, some of the worst driving offenders in Lemons have been from Spec Miata.

Don't stick weld a cage, that's idiotic. MIG or TIG.

What you said is idiotic. Any professional welder will tell you, welding is welding. You're joining two metals with heat, and a filler metal. What's important is technique, and stick welding is much more forgivable in that respect. Mig is definitely not.