ChumpCar...Why NOT a Neon?

After sitting on the sidelines for far too long a friend and I have decided to get behind the wheel of our very own ChumpCar. We started out by watching ads for all the cars you would expect to see in ChumpCar racing but have since landed on the decision (I think) to buy a car already prepared for racing. This lead us to ex-Spec Neon cars. Good choice or bad?

Now a Neon is not a car I ever would have considered for myself but there seems to be some love for them out there and the power to weight ratio looks better than some of the other cars we had previously been quite seriously considering like Integras, Civics/CRXs/Preludes, Sentras, Celicas, etc. I know the February issue of GRM included Neons in the Top 7 list of crapcan cars to consider which I thought was encouraging.

My question though is this; Why don't I see more Neon discussion here on the board and why aren't there more showing up in the $20XX challenges (which would seem like an obvious place for this car if it truly has potential)? Ok, that was two questions but you get the point.

Other than feeling a little threatened when they first came boasting more horsepower than my Honda, I suppose I really don't know that much about them. Any thoughts or suggestions would be appreciated. Anyone ever run Spec Neon and have anything to ad?

Thanks! Mark

If I was doing Chump or LeMons, absolutely one of the first cars I would consider is a Neon. Cheap, plentiful, plentiful, cheap, and a whole bunch of junkyard / parts bin upgrades available. Plus they handle great and are relatively stout.

http://hooniverse.com/2013/12/19/lemons-torture-test-revisited-a-2013-update-top-10/ It does have a positive domination factor at #19.

There used to be a lot more of both Neon discussion on this board and Neons at the Challenge - I think the first generation cars have become a bit rarer than they were four or five years ago, meaning fewer on the board and on the track now. Still, I can't think of a single reason NOT to run one in Chump.

I had a first gen ACR for about 6 months last year. I can't think of a cheaper car to run. Parts cost next to nothing and most junkyards are full of them. Good, cheap fun.

Thanks, I think this is the kind of reassurance I was looking for. Anything race prepped but especially an ex-Spec Neon seems to be a lot cheaper than taking any stock car and preparing it for Chump/Lemons.

Anyone know of specific weaknesses or problem areas to be watching for?

People seem to have wheel bearing problems in them. Upgrade to 91-95 K-car or caravan spindles (which requires a swap to 2g neon cv axles) and you will have bolt-in wheel bearings and a very very easy upgrade to 11.25" diameter front discs (which will not fit under 14s if you were planning on reusing spec neon tires).

If you did plan on keeping to 14" wheels and 205/50/14 toyos or some such, there is a factory 'aluminum steelie' from 90-93 Imperials that weighs about 11 lbs.

i believe a Neon got the overall win in a Chumpcar race last year, and they always do well as long as the teams keep on top of the head gaskets, timing belts, and wheel bearings..

the only why not for a neon is that you can find a MR2 or Miata and it would probably be more fun.

Vigo - Thanks! That's exactly the kind of info we're looking for.

Regarding the timing belt warning...are these interference engines?

kanaric - An MR2 or Miata would definitely be more fun, as would an E30/E36. We would prefer a RWD car but Neons, etc are a better fit with the budget at this point. It's difficult to find a non-rusty example of some of those cars for Chump-friendly money in Southern Ontario.

Yup, they are interference. So be careful with the timing belts and pick up a spare head and timing belt set to keep in the spares kit along with a headgasket kit.

A K-car (Shadow/Daytona/LeBaron, etc.) quick ratio rack swaps in and is slightly faster ratio than the Neon one (2.5 turns lock to lock/14:1 ratio versus 18:1).

http://forums.neons.org/viewtopic.php?f=123&t=227583

I think I have a 1st gen neon solid front motor mount and a 2.0L crank scraper laying around, if you'd like, PM me for details.

Yes and Yes and swap in a 2.4 liter and turbo

My firsthand experience with endurance racing the Chrysler 420A has not been pleasant. Oiling issues resulting in self-disassembly of the bottom end = DNFs about 70% of the events.

Not sure how much of that translates to the Neon ECC. Hopefully none of it, but I have to wonder.

The 2.4's do have severe oiling issues when driven on a track. The 2.0's less so since they don't have balance shafts taking up room in the pan and the shape of the pan isn't as flat (removing the balance shafts allows more room for oil, but can make oil slosh worse).

Unless you modify the oil pan with trap doors and a crank scraper/windage tray you'll never keep oil at the pickup properly. Since I've been modifying and racing FWD Chrysler cars for decades, this is second nature to me when building a car for serious track use. Of course Moroso makes a slick racing oil pan, but that isn't something you can run in ChumpCar.

There's also plans on the internet to build your own accusump system, which can be helpful in addition to a baffled oil pan.

turboswede wrote: The 2.4's do have severe oiling issues when driven on a track. The 2.0's less so since they don't have balance shafts taking up room in the pan and the shape of the pan isn't as flat (removing the balance shafts allows more room for oil, but can make oil slosh worse). Unless you modify the oil pan with trap doors and a crank scraper/windage tray you'll never keep oil at the pickup properly. There's also plans on the internet to build your own accusump system, which can be helpful in addition to a baffled oil pan.

This particular car is on it's 5-6th engine, despite a Moroso accumulator, modified oilpan and super cheaty high-dollar windage tray, crank scraper, trap doors and black magic.

Then again, the general consensus around here is that Toyota 1MZ-FEs blow up at the slightest provocation and I have 1500 track miles on mine. There are exceptions to every rule. :)

I will say that before said self-disassembly, the 420a is a pleasant engine to drive on track.

Buddy in the local neon club swapped a 2.4 into his 1st gen and toasted the bottom end taking an on-ramp enthusiastically with R-comps on his car. So yeah, there's a problem there and most solve it with the solutions you've tried.

Not sure why they aren't working for you, perhaps you need to add more oil capacity with an expanded oil pan?

What part fails? Could it be an issue with the rods not surviving the abuse? Chrysler 2.5 rods are the right length and are reported to be slightly stronger perhaps, then again SRT4 rods are also available.

Neons are usually a pretty good choice for dirt track. I don't see why it wouldn't be for chump.

As far as the oil starvation issues, run the steel oil pan off of a SOHC car and weld in your own baffles. OBX makes a knock-off Moroso pan you might be able to get for a decent price.

There's plenty you can do to these cars for not a lot of money.

I actually have the SOHC steel pan off my older brother's Neon from when he switched to a Moroso pan (wish I had grabbed that before he scrapped the car, grr).

If anyone wants the pan, its yours for the cost of shipping.

Templates and instructions: http://forums.neons.org/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=406406

Used to road race Neons, they are a good durable car, and yes parts are cheap and litter wrecking yards. Couple misnomers to clear up though: - Wheel bearings are NOT an issue with these cars, the front hubs are. Mopar Performance offers on and off the thicker "ACR" hubs that last longer than a standard hub but front hubs should be considered a wear item and replaced with new ones regularly. Most folks replace them after 12 hours of track time but one endurance team I drove with ran one pair over 40 hours with no issue. If the MP ACR hub isn't available, then use NAPA brand hubs. They aren't quite as thick as the ACR hubs but thicker than a standard hub. Also it is VERY important to properly torque the axle nut and use the nut cage and cotter pin. - Not all Neon engines are interference engines. The DOHC engine is, the SOHC is not. For endurance racing, the 2.0 SOHC is the only engine to use. The oiling issues relate to the DOHC head's inability to drain oil fast enough to keep up with the pump at sustained high rpms. The SOHC has no problems. Also, the DOHC uses followers instead of rocker arms and the followers are prone to failure. Also, the followers have a tendency to jump out from under the cam lobes if over-rev'd. The SOHC uses stout rocker arms similar to those found on a 426 Hemi. You cannot break these. You can over-rev and SOHC repeatedly without valvetrain issues. We tested both DOHC and SOHC engines on chassis dynos and saw only 10 hp difference, the DOHC did have higher peak numbers but the SOHC had a much broader power band and more power under the curve. Stay away from the aluminum factory oil pans as they don't control slosh as well as the earlier steel pans. I ran a Moroso road race pan on my personal car but more for the increased oil capacity than oil control. The endurance team I raced with ran stock steel pans without any issues.

I dont understand why anyone bothers repeatedly pressing fail-able hubs into neon spindles when you can swap on k-car parts and just not worry about it. Honestly, the neon parts are just k-car parts designed to be lighter and cheaper. Considering how easy it is to upgrade to the same hubs/spindles/brakes that came on 3700 lb minivans, i dont know why more people don't do it.

The sohc is definitely interference. The dohc 2.4 usually isnt, but we're not REALLY talking about that.

Yeah, without question, both versions of the Neon 2.0 are interference...

Duke wrote: Yeah, without question, both versions of the Neon 2.0 are interference...

That's how I got my 96 so cheap. PO didn't want to put more money into it after a snapped timing belt @ 160k caused him to buy a new head..

Everything else said is right on point. Valvetrain issues in the DOHC can be addressed via HLAs from a 2.4 PT Snoozer, and rocker arms out of a 2.7 V6. Can be done for a few dollars at the junkyard, if you feel so inclined.

However, I've heard from many that the SOHC is reliable over the long-term, especially when you address the oiling problems. From my understanding, the higher revs a DOHC will take do not lend as well to endurance racing.

That being said, it is quite easy to put together a hot SOHC using all factory parts, almost invisible to the naked eye. It's just finding the right combination of things to make it all work. The real power a SOHC and DOHC make are actually a lot closer than what advertised ratings would suggest.

Just wanted to say a big thanks to everyone, this has been super helpful. It looks like we'll likely be lining up a trip soon to see a couple of Spec Neons that are for sale. If either of these cars end up coming home with us I'm sure I'll have more questions to come.

Mark