Comparing Apples and Oranges: Finding a fun 4 door car

Was the 2000s-2010s the peak for engaging sporty cars, before electric steering and driver aids? Or has the newer technology in the late 2010s and 2020s improved cars overall while keeping them as fun to drive as their predecessors?

I'm looking for a new sedan as a daily driver and I'm asking for help to compare apples and oranges. When luxury sport sedans came out years ago, I could never afford them nor test drive them. Now that 2000s and 2010s luxury sport sedans are affordable but difficult to find to test drive, I have wondered how some of the new hot hatches (Elantra N and Civic Type R) compare to those older and well liked sport sedans.

My personal collection is a NC Miata track car, FD RX7 weekend car, Yukon Denali tow vehicle, and Malibu Maxx daily driver. I used to have a Mazdaspeed3 that I really enjoyed, but it was loud and rough due to the koni shocks stuck on full stiff. The new car will replace the Malibu as my daily driver. I kinda want to replace the Yukon Denali as it has several issues, but whether I can do that depends on how much I spend on the new fun car. I've been looking at newer Yukon's, LX570, and Sequoia, along with the more irresponsible Cayenne Turbo/GTS.

Preferences

• 4 door sedan/hatch/wagon (I know there are a lot of 2 door 4 seat coupes that are great to drive, but not really practical as a daily driver)
• No strong preference of FWD vs RWD, but less interested in AWD
• manual transmission (DSG or ZF 8hp might be acceptable)
• moderately quick (250+ hp)
• not terrible gas mileage (no CTS V, SS, etc)
• not too loud or rough, but I don't think I have been in a stock car that has been a problem other than wind noise and rattles that bother me.
• relatively reliable, I already have enough project cars
• Might autocross/track it. So it would be a plus if it was competitive almost stock in Solo or NASA/SCCA/Grid Life Time Trials.
• anywhere between $5-30k, though I might stretch the budget for a new car like the Elantra N or Civic Type R. Spending less would leave more for a better tow vehicle.

Current Options

• f30 340i - Haven't driven one yet. B58 seems like a great engine and can make a ton of power. The F80 m3 got a ton of attention and the f30 got overshadowed with barely anyone reviewing them especially with the b58, m-sport, and track handling package that really improved the car. These hard to find, especially with a manual and RWD.
• FL5 Civic Type R - I really liked the Si, but it was a bit slow and didn't feel like the right price/performance ratio. Another 110 hp over the Si, and being more fun to drive could change that, but its crazy to spend $45k for a Civic and $15k over the Si. Considering how well they keep their value, I could justify it, but I would definitely not have money left over for upgrading the Yukon. These are plentiful at dealers.
• Elantra N - haven't drive one. probably 80% of a type r for $11k less. Based on reviews, my choice over the 11th gen Civic Si. Availability is poor due to the 2024 refresh, and overall seems like production is low. I really prefer how the Civic Type R looks over the Elantra N, even after the refresh.
• e90 328i - Haven't driven one yet. Bigger and heavier version of the well liked 128i. definitely want manual and RWD only. Hydraulic steering is a plus. They are a bit rarer and really only see these on Marketplace so I haven't bothered someone to go kick tires.
• Acura 1st gen TSX/3rd gen TL - These seem pretty decent and the k24 or J32/35 engines are great. The TL Type S seems the best of all of these with the J35, but its hard to find one with a manual, reasonable price, and not 200k+ miles on it. Though that is probably a testament to the reliability of the TSX and TL, that they can be worth $4-7k with that many miles.
• MK7 GTI/Golf R - Rented a Mk7 GTI DSG for 2 weeks and it had competent handling, nice interior, decent space, etc, but it was just not exciting to drive like some other cars. Maybe it was too well engineered. Haven't driven a golf R, but the extra horsepower and AWD might make it more compelling. They are cheap and plentiful at dealers with both the DSG and manual transmission.
• WRX - not a huge subaru fan because of the older WRX/STI reliability issues, but the new FA engine in the WRX seems reliable. I could consider a 2015+ WRX. I will say I don't really need AWD.
• Focus ST/Fiesta ST - Driven both of these, FoST was very similar to my MS3. FiST was modified and still felt pretty slow comparatively but handled better. I am a bit worried on the reliability of these as I have had friends with issues on both of them.

Cars that aren't a great fit

• 11th gen Civic Si/Interga A-Spec - Drove both of these new. Its a great car, competent handling, and just adequate power, but for the price doesn't seem great compared to the other options.
• 10th gen Civic Si - Ugly exterior and they barely have depreciated so I'd pay extra for the 11th gen if I had to get an Si.
• Infinity G37 - didn't drive one, but they are really hard to find one with a manual transmission, especially a sedan. Also not a huge Nissan/Infinity fan.
• Accord 2.0T - Nice power, decent handling, but never felt fun to drive with the 10 speed auto. Haven't driven the 6 speed manual yet, but it won't change the handling

Overall, the f30 340i seems the best combination of characteristics, but the praises of some of the other options make me thinking to get a more common and popular car. I really love the Civic Type R other than the price. The Elantra N seems almost as good as the CTR (other than the exterior styling), but I bet it will crash in value after a couple years. I also like the idea of spending <$10k with the e90/TSX/TL, but its hard to find a nice one that isn't very high mileage or overpriced.

Any thoughts on how these car compare on handling, driver engagment, and enjoyment?

My everyday car for the last nine years has been some flavor of big engined manual trans BMW starting with an E36 328is, moving to an E90 335i, to an E39 540i. I absolutely loved each of them for their own reasons but full stop there's nothing better to spend street driving time in than a well set up BMW

I just replaced that entire fleet with a 10th gen Civic SI and honestly like really honestly it's 95% as good, the appeal of BMWs to me has always been they feel like whoever was in charge was really trying and was skillful enough that the finished product was always good. The Civic feels exactly the same way, its tight, composed, the seats while limited in adjustment options are insanely comfortable and equally well suited to sporty driving as they are several hour highway trips. Sure it's light on the power, it'll happily roll down the the highway at 100+ but not nearly as effortlessly as a car 800lb heavier with 300 more horsepower. It's the okay-est car I've ever driven and that makes it truly great. 

CTR shifter, chassis brace, Whiteline rear bar, and a tune apparently completely changes the SI with a sharp nudge towards sports car and we keep the 34.6mpg average. 

Around here really reasonable mileage FK8 CTR Tourings are sub $40,000. Integra Type S generally trades for less than an FL5 CTR as well 

TSX and TL are both utterly sublime for what they are. The TL will always feel more like a really really sporty Accord than an BMW 

You have a pretty wide range of cars here. I would get rid of the TSX/TL and E90 BMW right up front because you said daily driver. My version of a DD is something that I just hop in and drive with little day to day work. Having a nearly 20 Y/O car doesn't necessarily mean that. 

I went the VW route for my DD. A little different than your choice though. I have a 6 speed Golf Sportswagen 4motion with a tune and Golf R estate springs/RSB. Drives good but definitely not a car that sets the soul on fire. I have an Evo and miata for that. But what it does do good is a 4 season car with 30+ MPG and room for a decent amount of stuff.  Be warned, the golf family is not big inside so for me it's a 3 person car for anything beyond the city limits unless the driver is really short.  

Yeah, I like the reliability, great engines, and double a-arm suspension on the TL and TSX. Sporty Accord is good enough for me if it is affordable. I did look at the 05-07 Accord v6 manual but they are just as hard to find in good condition as the TL and TSX, and cost the same. Though as bmw rider said, the first gen TSX/3rd gen TL is getting pretty old now, though I would think it should be more reliable than my Malibu which I am sure will have transmission issues eventually.

I am surprised that the Civic Si stacks up so well against some of those great older BMWs. I think the 11th gen Civic Si is even more refined than the 10th gen too. Then again, the Civic has been getting a lot of praise lately with the different magazine reviews, so I guess it can't be too surprising. To be truthful, I don't really need any more power than the Civic Si has, it is already about as fast as my 2.5 swapped miata, just without any of the theater. The maximum speed on my work commute is 40 mph, though there isn't much traffic so I can at least accelerate from each stoplight. I was interested in the Integra A Spec as a used one is about expensive as a new Si, other than it being a little slow stock.

I do like wagons, but after I got the Yukon XL, I haven't really needed the practicality that comes with a wagon. If the US had a GTI/Golf R wagon, I'd definitely take that over the hatchback, but I think I would enjoy the GTI/Golf R more than the Golf Sportswagon. Other than being old and very difficult to find, an e91 328i rwd, manual sport package could be cool. I am also normally alone especially on trips, so back seat legroom isn't a huge deal. Just want more back seat and trunk room than some of the 2 door 2+2 options like my current RX7 and say a BRZ, 911, etc, and get decent gas mileage for trips. If I need a ton of room/more people are coming, I can take the Yukon.

Following as I am currently looking to replace my daily (F30 320i). I am also looking for a sweet spot in terms of modern(ish) vs. drive by wire, driver aids, etc. 

As an aside, Malibu Maxx... About 8-10 years ago I bought a 2006 from my mother with 40k on it. I drove it until 200k before giving it to my daughter. Unfortunately, a deer ended its run. It was incredibly trouble free, receiving only the bare minimum of routine maintenance over the years. The only repairs were a coolant temp sensor and having to address broken wiring at the MAF plug. For a car that was remarkably lackluster and plain, it made a great DD. 

Hear me out...

Four doors
Available TR6060, Recaro seats and PDR
464bhp stock, 28-30mpg @ 75mph
600whp easily available with downpipes, fuel cam, E50 blend and tune
Being forever asked "Does that have the Corvette engine?"

Biggest con IMO is aftermarket is a fraction of the F30.

Ls swapped rx8?

Just passing through to drop a potential wildcard that's been on my radar: The Hyundai Sonata N-Line.

I know, it's front-wheel-drive and doesn't come with a limited-slip, but a pre-refresh model put down a pretty decent lap time at the FIRM: 1:25.99–a little faster than a 2001 Boxster S, 2020 Civic Si and a 2020 MX-5 Club.

Some highlights:

• 2.5-liter turbo-four
• 290 horsepower and 311 lb.-ft. of torque
• DCT
• 23/33/27 mpg

Is there a reason the previous generation civic type r isn't on the list? From a quick look it seems like there's plenty available around $30k. It's a little ugly but otherwise fits everything you want perfectly. I drove one a few years ago and was seriously impressed; if I ever found myself needing a fun car with a functional back seat it would definitely be at or near the top of the list.

Currently have a 1g 6-speed tsx. I'm not tempted by the nose heavy tl, but do think about the gs350 and g20 330i  from time to time.

Motojunky how do you feel about your f series? I assume the 320i wasn't available with the sport and track package which supposedly really improves the experience. The Malibu Maxx has been a beloved car in the family that my mother had for 16 years until it needed some repairs that were expensive for a shop. I did a bunch of suspension replacement and it still has a decent exhaust leak I haven't fixed. They also had a 2000 and 2006 impala with the same 4T65 transmission and I think they went through 4-5 trans between those two cars. The Malibu has 100k mi so I want to sell it before the transmission fails. The Yukon's transmission also failed within a couple months of buying it at 180k mi, so I kinda want to avoid GM transmission issues for now.

Flying Viata, I do love the CT4 and CT5, but the cheapest used CT4 BW is way out of my budget. Also the gas mileage is not amazing, 23 is better than the older gen 2 CTSV with 19, but not much better.

Colin wood, a used sonata nline is definitely something I wasn't aware of and looks like a pretty nice car. Depreciation hit them pretty hard, a 2021 is around $22-25k, so it's definitely in the budget. But I kinda feel I'd rather pay extra for the Elantra N.

DPS, previous gen type r isn't on the list since I can't get past all the vents on the front and rear bumper. But the price is more paletable. I think I'd rather get the new Si over the old type r just because the new one looks so good.

InIds, I never looked at the different curb weights before. You are right, the TL is another 360 lb heavier and 61.4% on the nose compared to the TSX at 3200 lbs and 60%. What is appealing with the Lexus and BMW? I haven't looked until either, but they seem like more comfort oriented luxury cars.

I think the Elanta N would be a perfect upgrade from the Malibu Maxx (I haven't seen one of those in yearrrrrs). Sounds like a sweet spot for you, plus the 100k mile warranty along with a warranty that covers track usage. 

One of my close friends just got a FL5 Type R and it's awesome. This would honestly be my choice under $50k. It will hold it's value and it's a Honda, so relatively easy to work on and maintain. 

I'm curious that you don't have the new Integra Type S on your list? A CTR for grownups?

NC240Zed said:

I'm curious that you don't have the new Integra Type S on your list? A CTR for grownups?

After driving both, the ITS seats are a downgrade from the CTR but the active suspension is nice. You also don't get all the "track day" gauges the CTR is equipped with. You're kind of paying more for less. 

I feel that I am qualified to talk about 2 cars on your list: 

Fiesta ST - An absolute blast to drive, every day, every trip, it puts a smile on your face. More power is easy, I had a few bolt ons and a tune and was putting 300ft/lb to the wheels. The hatchback gives it some practicality, and it has enough creature comforts to make it livable. The bad news is that it is based on a $12K economy car that is built as if it is a $6K economy car. The interior is cheap, cheap, cheap, the rear wheel arches start to rust, lots of cost-cutting is evident throughout.  It is also small inside, very small. If you mod the suspension, you ruin the car. So if you love it in stock form, and  find a great example for $10K, go for it. 

Elantra N - This car should cost more. It does everything really well, from long drives, to daily commutes, to track nights, to autocross. It may not be the #1 pick for any of these, but nothing else does it all so well at $45K, let alone at $35K. It is really fun to drive, and that's coming from someone who had a FiST for years. You can putter around in eco mode, comfortably, getting 30+ mpg and not bothering the neighbors. At the touch of a button, you are in race mode, hunkered down, ready to rock, making some noise. I never get tired of that. The seats are great, even for someone carrying an extra 30 - 50 pounds.  The touch screens are really good, all the toys and settings are well executed, and I love being able to customize so many things. (People who say there are too many options like vanilla ice cream and hate Baskin Robins, they are freaks, ignore them.) The car has been really solid, most of the issues I have faced have been my own doing. (Like hitting curbs with the splitter, something the 2024 model addresses.)  The dealer experience has been top-notch, Hyundai corporate has been great with recalls and such, and there is a growing community if you are into that. 

So buy an Elantra N, enjoy it all week long, then on the weekends go and blow the doors of Corvettes and Porsches. 

da_johnny_boy said:

Motojunky how do you feel about your f series? I assume the 320i wasn't available with the sport and track package which supposedly really improves the experience. The Malibu Maxx has been a beloved car in the family that my mother had for 16 years until it needed some repairs that were expensive for a shop. I did a bunch of suspension replacement and it still has a decent exhaust leak I haven't fixed. They also had a 2000 and 2006 impala with the same 4T65 transmission and I think they went through 4-5 trans between those two cars. The Malibu has 100k mi so I want to sell it before the transmission fails. The Yukon's transmission also failed within a couple months of buying it at 180k mi, so I kinda want to avoid GM transmission issues for now.

Flying Viata, I do love the CT4 and CT5, but the cheapest used CT4 BW is way out of my budget. Also the gas mileage is not amazing, 23 is better than the older gen 2 CTSV with 19, but not much better.

Colin wood, a used sonata nline is definitely something I wasn't aware of and looks like a pretty nice car. Depreciation hit them pretty hard, a 2021 is around $22-25k, so it's definitely in the budget. But I kinda feel I'd rather pay extra for the Elantra N.

DPS, previous gen type r isn't on the list since I can't get past all the vents on the front and rear bumper. But the price is more paletable. I think I'd rather get the new Si over the old type r just because the new one looks so good.

InIds, I never looked at the different curb weights before. You are right, the TL is another 360 lb heavier and 61.4% on the nose compared to the TSX at 3200 lbs and 60%. What is appealing with the Lexus and BMW? I haven't looked until either, but they seem like more comfort oriented luxury cars.

 

The 32oi has been a fantastic commuter for the last 4.5 years. I swore off German cars after some BS with VW warranty work on a then-new 2001 1.8t Jetta. I fiddled with Mk2 VWs "back in the day" but have otherwise had only that one experience with VW. I wasn't looking for a BMW when this one fell into my lap. I heard all kinds of horror stories about maintenance costs, etc. I bought it with 100k on it and have put another 100k on it. Those have been remarkably trouble-free miles "for a BMW." I had to replace the valve cover (leaking) about 60k ago and otherwise have done brakes, tires, etc. At 200k, it decided that my free ride was over. The oil cooler housing is leaking, and more importantly, the computer is unhappy about something and has had a "driveline malfunction" warning for the last 2,000 miles. I can't seem to get motivated about procuring the ISTA software and a cable to do anything about it. My regular code scanners don't give me enough useful info to do anything other than aim the parts cannon in a general direction. Frankly, I'm probably going to post it here cheap one of these days. Even with the reduced power from the current state, it's a very enjoyable commuter. It's not a performance car, but it's just a really nice car to drive. 

My Malibu Maxx started making me nervous about the transmission at about 110k. I gave it to my daughter at around 200k and she beat the crap out of it for another 20k miles before the deer killed it. The trans never gave us any trouble - and had never had any service at all. Lucky, I guess. 

Colin Wood said:

Just passing through to drop a potential wildcard that's been on my radar: The Hyundai Sonata N-Line.

I know, it's front-wheel-drive and doesn't come with a limited-slip, but a pre-refresh model put down a pretty decent lap time at the FIRM: 1:25.99–a little faster than a 2001 Boxster S, 2020 Civic Si and a 2020 MX-5 Club.

Some highlights:

• 2.5-liter turbo-four
• 290 horsepower and 311 lb.-ft. of torque
• DCT
• 23/33/27 mpg

Side note (because I was doing some car shopping/spreadsheet filling during lunch): If you really need cooled seats, the Sonata N-Line's cousin, the K5 GT, has them available as an optional package.

Audi S-3?

Dirtybird, really the only knock on the Elantra N is availability and resale value. I know the Type R will hold its value a lot better. Otherwise everyone seems to love them.

Zed, I do like the Integra Type S, the biggest issue is the $53k is way over my budget and a used one is still $49k. I drove the Integra A spec manual and preferred it over the Si since it has the hatchback, heated seats, HUD, and better sound system. Though I prefer how the type r looks over the type S and I think the Type R will hold its value better considering how much the 2023 Integra A spec has depreciated after a year. I'm a bit split on the suspension and R mode on the Civic. It seems a bit unusable so I wouldn't call it a positive, but you can swap the Integra suspension module to get a softer suspension on the type R. All that being said, the ITS got some amazing accolades from many automotive journalists so it's worth looking into. I just know that if I get the CTR or ITS, I would end up tracking it and would probably prefer the CTR as it will likely be better supported by the aftermarket.

Motojunky, honestly that's a lot better reliability than I would expect from a BMW. I was expecting replacing the coolant system along with fixing oil leaks and maybe a couple electrical issues. The 340i's I have looked at have around 90k mi so if they lasted doubled that I would be more than happy. I probably put 7k miles on my daily driver per year, so it would last a pretty long time, and I probably would sell it before it had 200k mi.

Pinchvalve, the FiST I drove was my friends that was tuned, modified suspension, etc. I haven't driven a stock one so maybe it is worth it to try. If it is cheap enough, it could be worth it. I saw a $10k 2015 GTI that I thought was a steal, but it had a rusted rocker panel and rusted rear fender. We don't get too much snow and normally it melts quickly, but the salt stays on the road most of the winter. Definitely sounds like I should try to drive an Elantra N, I might have to drive to a near by city since the local Hyundai dealers don't have any in stock. I will say I am surprised you have had good Hyundai dealership experience since I have not heard great things about both the car sales and service sides. I guess I will see when I try test driving one.

Colin Wood, K5 GT with cooled seats sounds kinda nice. I also didn't think about kia before, but along those lines, the Stinger is another possibility. I've been back and forth on cloth vs leather, and I really like cloth seats better. Leather seats really need heating and cooling to be usable as they always are freezing in the winter and burning in the summer. All my cars other than the Malibu have leather seats. I like that cloth seats are on quite a few performance models.

Lotus, the S3 is pretty nice, but I hadn't considered it since it has an automatic/DSG and no available manual. That being said I've never driven a manual GTI so I'm not sure if I will like it, an might prefer the DSG anyways. I know others aren't a fan of the VW shifter feeling. A friend had an S3 which had problems with accelerating and turning at the same time. He had a GTI before that so that issue was surprising since it's the same engine.

B8 S4. Last of the manual transmission S sedans. Supercharged 3.0 V6 that's super reliable, hydraulic steering (electric in the B8.5 face-lift FYI), double divorced A-arm front suspension. Absolutely cooks on track, fun to AX, great daily. 

Macan is supposedly good?? What about mid mileage 1st gen Panamara?

Like the Caddy and RS3 above.

I love my FL5 Type R. Big enough for car seats and very engaging fun for the street. 

In reply to da_johnny_boy :

Where you located? I have an E90 330i that is perfect for what you are asking about, but you may be scared by the high miles. You are welcome to test it if near SC. 

I would throw Focus RS in the ring. New GLI maybe. 

I'm biased.  I recommend you take a hard look a BMW E90 or E91 (wagon).  I've had my E91 for 9 months and it's hands-down my favorite driving car I've owned.  I'm shocked how much it feels like my first E30...except faster and more quiet on the highway.  They're smaller than they look (can be a positive or a negative).  I've calculated over 30mpg on interstate trips on mid-grade fuel...+400 mile range. They're not exactly "modern"...more the last of the old-breed  NA straight-6 w/hydraulic steering.  Also, BMW sport seats are great.  

A nice E90 sport package car will cost $5k to $10k, depending on year/mileage/maintenance.  Typical BMW: plan to fix oil leaks (OFHG, valve cover, lower oil pan) and refresh the cooling system (water pump is electric and there's lots of plastic) if they haven't been done.  The belly pan might be hiding oil leaks, so check carefully.

The N20 (4cyl turbo) BMWs have a reputation for needing timing chain/guide replacements.  It seems to be more of an issue w/the earlier F30 cars.  The internet seems to say don't buy one w/out records of the guides being upgraded to the newer design.  There's a enough "just needs a new engine" F30s for sale that the threat is real.  

The newer Civic Si coupes were very competitive in autocross ~3-4 years ago.  I can't imagine the sedans were much slower...but I agree that they look funky.  I haven't checked prices recently, but they do probably hold value better than Z-Germans.  The MK7 GTis w/e-diff were also very competitive.  

mid-2006-2015ish Civic Si sedans and the Acura TSX are nice driving cars.  Both require premium fuel, and I feel like the power is a little lackluster.  I may still buy one at some point.  

Audi A4/S4 variants check the boxes for manual transmission.
Early Panamera suggestions are very interesting.  Lack of a manual transmission has kept me on the sidelines...but I'll bet they're great driving cars when well-sorted.

For more modern cars, I'd skip they Hyundai-N and check out the Kia Stinger.  Pretty sure they were available w/dual-clutch.  Depreciation & general Kia-type problems are your enemy w/this option.  

My doggo is too big to comfortably stand in the back of my wagon. I've been considering selling it, buying an E90 sedan & spending the unicorn tax (6MT RWD wagon premium) on other family stuff.  Every time I drive it I just want to roll the windows down and wind-out 2nd and 3rd gears.