OK folks, I want the comunity's thoughts on general maintinance costs and basic track consumables of the following:
Miata E30 944 8V NA Focus ZX3 Focus SVT Contour SVT
I know what I know and belive, but I'm having a ... eerrr ... discussion with SWMBO about the pro's and cons. I want an impartial review for spousal inspection 
Thanks
The only thing that could possibly be cheaper than running a Miata on the track would be a Civic.
Have a miata, sold an E30...
E30, stock consumables were not too bad at all. Sometimes you run into something expensive but not stupidly so. Not too bad to work on. Protect thyne oilpan.
Miata, stupid cheap consumables. New rotors are the same or cheaper then having them turned. Parts a plenty. Easy to work on. Watch out for crank noses.
Contour SVT, never had one, hear they are a MASSIVE pita to work on.
I would say that if you move the 944 to the right a few spots, your costs from low to high are pretty close. The 8V Focus would probably make you tear your hair out as it ground the front tires off whilst being passed by almost everything on the track. The SVT Contour is a pita to work on, and the very first thing you gotta do with it is put an aftermarket oil pan on it- at least if you want your crankshaft to arrive at the finish line with the rest of the car. I've got a bit of a chubby for an SVT Focus, but I've never even driven one.
FWD vs RWD- Two of the big consumables for me, racing a Neon, are tires and brakes. I shake my head in disbelief while people talk about their second, or, God forbid, THIRD weekend on a set of tires...If I can get 2 1/2 hours out of 4 Goodyear RS's, I'm content. Thats on old, bad asphalt, running at the pointy end of my group. Three weekends on a set of Hawk Blues, and hopefully the rotors will last through the whole set. I'm pretty confident a rear drive car is going to be way better from that end, especially a nice German car that comes with decent brakes to begin with.
Had a contour they are not bad to work on for most jobs but the miata is a lot easier.
The contour has some oiling problems on high speed sweeping left? hand turns. Waterpump impeller issues. Diff can be kind of weak.
I keep hearing that Miata's are the cheapest thing in the world to track, but everywhere else I hear it's fox/SN95 Mustangs and 3rd/4th Gen Camaros.
All of the following are for 1994 (Miata, Mustang GT, Camaro Z28) in order from Summit Racing:
Looking at that the Mustang wins. Add in the fact that performance parts are cheaper and you don't have to buy a hardtop to race and it looks even better. Yeah, the stock Mustang suspension is crap, but so is the damn Miata's! You'll spend how much money on NB shock mounts, new shocks, coilovers, sway bar mounting mods, etc?
I'm sorry, but I just don't see how the Miata is cheaper. Tires, maybe, but let's be honest here the amount of 14's available is rapidly dwindling, so you're up to 15's and they aren't doing much better so you end up paying out of the nose for good track tires, whereas the Mustang's 245/45/17 is pretty much the most popular size right now giving you more options and a really good price for the amount of rubber.
Javelin wrote: I'm sorry, but I just don't see how the Miata is cheaper. Tires, maybe, but let's be honest here the amount of 14's available is rapidly dwindling, so you're up to 15's and they aren't doing much better so you end up paying out of the nose for good track tires, whereas the Mustang's 245/45/17 is pretty much the most popular size right now giving you more options and a really good price for the amount of rubber.
I know a few folks who track Fox Mustangs. They certainly aren't using stock brakes -- Cobra upgrades seem to be pretty much required, and those rotors are a lot more expensive. That also means updating to 5-lug hubs. As for the tires, their cars chew through them like crazy. Massive amounts of static negative camber eats up the inside edges of the street tires, and even so the strut geometry doesn't given enough camber gain to avoid chewing up the outside edge of the track tires. Perhaps the SN95s are better, I dunno.
Plenty of Spec Miata-sized track tires around, and RA-1s are 25% cheaper in Miata sizes than Mustang-sized 17s.
No power and good handling means the Miata doesn't have to brake much, so it's easy on brakes, while lightweight and good suspension design means it's easy on tires.
Put a turbo on the Miata and it gets a lot faster at the track, but costs go way up.
Don't forget to factor in the costs of gasoline.
Javelin wrote: I keep hearing that Miata's are the cheapest thing in the world to track, but everywhere else I hear it's fox/SN95 Mustangs and 3rd/4th Gen Camaros. All of the following are for 1994 (Miata, Mustang GT, Camaro Z28) in order from Summit Racing:
I think that just means that Summit Racing is a much better place to buy ponycar parts than it is to buy Miata parts (duh). I paid less than your quoted prices for most of that stuff through either Mazda Motorsport or AZ/Napa/Advance/Rock Auto.
The fact that your swmbo is having this conversation with you is pretty cool IMO.
Mine thinks consumables for the weekend means beer and sandwiches
All I can say is I can't wait until I can sell my E30... it's not difficult to work on... just annoying. Then again maybe it's just because it feels like I'm always working on it. Right now I seem to get a 1:1 wrenching to driving time ratio - and that's just doing autocross. The idea of tracking it scares the crap out of me with regards to what would break next... I wouldn't take it to the track without a trailer, such is my confidence in it right now. It hasn't stayed in one piece long enough for me to even be remotely concerned about consumables... All I'm really saying is be careful when buying one. IMHO, if looking for a track car buy the absolute cheapest one you can find and just assume it needs everything. Instead of paying a premium for a really nice one only to find out it still needs everything. The typical aftermarket suspension stuff is sh1t for performance, so plan on coil overs.
I haven't decided what to replace it with either...
Javelin wrote: Add in the fact that performance parts are cheaper and you don't have to buy a hardtop to race and it looks even better. I'm sorry, but I just don't see how the Miata is cheaper. Tires, maybe
To be fair, the hardtop is not really an expense because it's essentially like putting $800 in a safe deposit box while you own the car. I actually made money on mine because I spotted a killer craigslist deal on one.
Also, good point there, it wouldn't make sense to include tire costs/life in an analysis of the expenses of running a track car 
.
I am sorry by the time you modify the Mustang to be able to figure out what the hell a corner plus paying for tires for a heavier car and sort the brakes the Mustang is not cheaper then a Miata (and this is someone who has no love for Miatas). I think a Camaro is closer in terms of cost but still between gas, tires and brake pads I doubt it.
My vote would either be the Miata, Camaro or 944. Although personally I think you really need a Yugo.
Javelin wrote: Looking at that the Mustang wins. Add in the fact that performance parts are cheaper and you don't have to buy a hardtop to race and it looks even better. Yeah, the stock Mustang suspension is crap, but so is the damn Miata's! You'll spend how much money on NB shock mounts, new shocks, coilovers, sway bar mounting mods, etc?
About a quarter as much as you'll spend on subframe connectors, a torque arm and panhard bar, springs and shocks, caster/camber plates and all the other stuff a Mustang needs to even be reasonably close to a Miata in handling.
And the brakes, as mentioned, though if you start off with an SN95 you're better off there. The cooling system is marginal for track use on these cars, too.
I've owned several Mustangs, a Miata and a 4th gen Z28. The Mustang is the cheapest to upgrade, but it also needs more upgrading. The F-body is the best in stock form, but it's a PITA to work on and upgrade parts are expensive.
I think what Ade is trying to establish is whether or not an E30 is as cheap or cheaper to own and track than the other cars on his list, several of which he has owned and can refer to when discussing the matter with SWMBO.
Personally, I'd have the SN-95, but the real winner would be a P71 with a mustang manual swap. My $0.02
IMHO, the amount of maintence you can accept on a car is porportional to the amount you like the car.
You hate it- nothing.
You love it, more than the car may be worth.
Why we deny the emotional side of buying cars we like is beyond me.
I was going through the same thing last month, ended up getting a 99 Miata w/ hardtop. It needs a little work under the hood but other than that it is in pretty good condition and will be track ready soon.
Josh wrote:Javelin wrote: I keep hearing that Miata's are the cheapest thing in the world to track, but everywhere else I hear it's fox/SN95 Mustangs and 3rd/4th Gen Camaros. All of the following are for 1994 (Miata, Mustang GT, Camaro Z28) in order from Summit Racing:I think that just means that Summit Racing is a much better place to buy ponycar parts than it is to buy Miata parts (duh). I paid less than your quoted prices for most of that stuff through either Mazda Motorsport or AZ/Napa/Advance/Rock Auto.
I started with Rock Auto but their prices made everything seem cheap. All of the stuff I quoted was the same brand-for-brand and cheaper than NAPA FWIW.
Tom_Spangler wrote:Javelin wrote: Looking at that the Mustang wins. Add in the fact that performance parts are cheaper and you don't have to buy a hardtop to race and it looks even better. Yeah, the stock Mustang suspension is crap, but so is the damn Miata's! You'll spend how much money on NB shock mounts, new shocks, coilovers, sway bar mounting mods, etc?About a quarter as much as you'll spend on subframe connectors, a torque arm and panhard bar, springs and shocks, caster/camber plates and all the other stuff a Mustang needs to even be reasonably close to a Miata in handling.
As opposed to the butterfly braces, NB shock mounts, bigger swaybars with mounting supports, coilovers, bushings, and larger brake setup to get the Miata to handle? Or the turbocharger, intercooler, MS, and eventual engine rebuild just to try and keep up with the stock Mustang on the straights?
Love my 944's, and NA's are pretty cheap, until something breaks. Rod bearings are considered a wear item, and the aftermarket ones don't have the best record (I got 3 weekends out of the last set!). Not to mention the time to replace them. The clutches run $700 or so, going off of memory. They are a pain to work on. But holy cow they are rewarding! You can pick up a turn-key SP2 car for $6-8000. If you race PCA SP1, or the 944 Spec, that will help with your tire costs. SP2's can run Hoosiers, which are twice as much and last half as long as the Toyos. Contour SVT's have a tendency to blow up bottom ends.
The tin-top aspect should not be ignored. Have you ever seen a Miata that went upside down? Anything short of a full cage in that car is a gamble.
Javelin wrote: As opposed to the butterfly braces, NB shock mounts, bigger swaybars with mounting supports, coilovers, bushings, and larger brake setup to get the Miata to handle? Or the turbocharger, intercooler, MS, and eventual engine rebuild just to try and keep up with the stock Mustang on the straights?
I'm with you on the straightaway speed, and the need for rollover protection. Those are the two biggest reasons I got rid of my Miata. But I reject the notion that a Miata needs all that stuff "to handle". They handle pretty well in stock form, you could easily get by with springs and shocks if you want. The Mustang needs major surgery.
Thanks for all the input. I started this thread as my wife hears BMW and believes that every part on it's going to cost a fortune.
I've owned an SN95 and know intimately what it needs to make it work. I'm not interested in a big heavy car with a V8 and 17" tires, I'm especially not interested in a Mustang. The work needed to bring the handling up to the level of a stock version of any of the others cars is a joke.
I've also owned a Miata, Focus and SVT Contour. The myth that Contours are hard to work on is just that. The internet is full of people who swear up and down that an Alternator is a 2 day job with a hoist. Nope, personally done it in as little as 4 hours from jack up to jack down. Admittedly the first time took more like 6 hours. Also changing the rear 02 sensor is meant to be next to impossible, I changed both front and rear in under an hour. The rear is accessible from the top if you remove the coil pack.
These are some costs I've found.
Javelin wrote: As opposed to the butterfly braces, NB shock mounts, bigger swaybars with mounting supports, coilovers, bushings, and larger brake setup to get the Miata to handle?
On a non-turbo Miata the brakes are up to track use if you get decent pads and rotors. Heck, I was running stock brakes on a turbo'd one on my local track in the UK and that was OK.
The Miata I PDX'd a couple of weeks ago is more or less stock (it has MSM shocks and springs, plus polyurethane bushes in the rear and Hawk HP+ pads) and with a decent alignment it handles pretty well. Heck, I'm even running Michelin A/S tires at the moment.
Yes, there are faster Miatas on the track and they spent more money. I'll eventually end up doing that, too.
Javelin wrote: Or the turbocharger, intercooler, MS, and eventual engine rebuild just to try and keep up with the stock Mustang on the straights?
That's a different issue, though, isn't it? Yes, the Mustang has more power and more speed out of the box. Both have deficiencies that you'd need to correct.
At the moment I'd rather have a slower car that I don't have to throw a lot of money at and that gets more than single figure mpg on the track. I'll eventually get the need for more speed again and then I'd probably look at more expensive to track cars again. But this side of my Elise (which has a much higher buy in than a Miata) I haven't found anything that is cheaper at least from a consumables point than a Miata.
I would think that the sweet spot when it comes to handling, power and cost of consumables on the OP's list is somewhere around the 944, but then again I like Porsches. ..
I have experience as a crewmember for a number of Focuses that have quite a bit of track time.
SVT used as an endurance racer. 25K track miles over 5 years. Races are from 1 to 4 hours in length.
2.3L used as a DD and time trialer. Class champion for 2 years. When totaled in a traffic accident it had 87K miles on it.
2.0L Zetec with a PowerWorks air to water intercooled supercharger used as a DD and time trialer. Car had 110K on it before being supecharged and begining racing. Class champion for 2 years and probably will be again this year. Car now has 160K miles on it.
SVT with an non-intercooled supercharger used as a DD and HPDE car. Been used in this configuragion since 2004.
Numbers 3 and 4 will be getting new engines this winter. Number 3 because it is begining to wear out and Number 4 because the owner wants to change to an intercooled turbochrger to eliminate some heat soak problems in longer runs.
None of these cars have been difficult to work on or have had any problems that were unexpected due to the type of use they get.
Parts are readily available and inexpensive for the Focus. There is also a large user base to go to for support.
Also I DD a Focus with a PowerWorks superchager and have had no problems in the 50K miles since I installed the supercharger.
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