Cool cars you can no longer afford to have fun with or

In reply to Klayfish: You know exactly what I'm talking about then.

In reply to racea911:

Don't be concerned with what your friends think, do what you want to do so you can do what you want to do. I had something like this happen to me, not exactly the same, but I used to drive a newer Cadillac, after a $3500 headgasket job I sold it, bought a Ranger as my DD and have been working on the XR4 and bought a Fiat Spider last year to fix up on a challenge budget. All my friends were trading up to Volvos, Lexus, Mercedes, BMW, Infiniti, all of them laughed at me and wondered why I hadn't gotten a new Caddy. I'm now the first person they call when they're too cheap to move a fridge, couch, insert other oversized object that only a truck can move because they just spent $800 on minor car repairs. I'm also the one who has the $ to work on the XR4 as a dedicated track/autoX car with 0 worries about blowing it up because well, parts are freakin cheap at the junkyard. I also have the $ now to dabble in working on restoring my challenge budget Fiat Spider. Oh, and I've made one hell of a nice garage for myself. My friends are no longer laughing...

It seems to me that there is a clear course here that would make a nice compromise. Track the M3, they are uber compitant on track and still very much drive it to and from the track capable even in Track day guise. Then take your profits from the Porsche sales, or just one Porsche sale and get into a newer daily. Everyone I know who tracks and E36 loves it and can go years without getting tired of the experience.

As much as a classic 510 would totally rock, they are much more of a dedicated track car, and as is has been said not as easy to find parts for.

So I know you said you don't want to have to trailer a car to the track, however I thought this might interest you anyway. If you look at the last post he bumped it and is now looking to sell as a roller for 2900 with a separate motor and tranny.

http://forum.sccbc.net/YaBB.pl?board=for_sale;action=display;num=1297219089

If I could I would totally buy it!

To racea911:

I came up with Porsches so I understand their appeal. But >what< you drive isn't as important as >driving<. It's better to get out on track in something, anything, than to not be able to get out there at all. You wrote the the 911T was the fulfillment of a dream and selling dreams can lead to regret. But your other posts made it sound as if even the 911T is no longer your dream car. So...

I recommend selling both 911s and buying an inexpensive, street-legal track car. Keep the E36 M3; you love it, it's a great DD, and frankly you won't free up much money by switching to another DD. For the selling price of the 911T you have several options for track cars. Since you like boxy I suggest a BMW, mostly an E36. Doesn't have to be an M3, regular E36 cars are around $3-4K. Swap in M3 suspension and brakes as you go. But you'll be on track and loving it, and you'll have more positive energy to bring to your family life. This would leave all the proceeds from the RS clone to be invested into inventory.

I've driven everything from Lamborghinis to Miatas. Some folks need a nameplate or horsepower but, and I think better drivers will agree, any decently set-up track car is tons of fun to drive. It's about getting out there and getting seat time. Even a good FWD car can be fun (but not as fun as a good RWD car).

Good luck with the family.

David

If you want fun, affordable track time there is only one answer ChumpCar!

http://the510realm.com/

A good place to search, and a decent places to learn about the + and -

My image of a nice 510....... SR20DE powered(no turbo), 6 speed from the S15 Silvia, and the parts to re-do the rear suspension geometry, add in 280ZX brakes and go have fun..... Total cost under $10 grand....

You can do a national search if you want - http://www.autotempest.com

A sample.... http://the510realm.com/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=19831

Ten or 12 grand can put you in this: I think it's a total blast to drive and it puts you in a community of 1) great racers and 2) a German car brand with a tremendous following. If you choose not to race W2W it can be driven to/from the track (mine's still plated). If you choose to sell it, the series is still growing and you can usually find a willing buyer. Engines only get rebuilt if you're a front-runner; the rest of us just stick in junkyard motors. Cheap-ish tires, cheap brakes, cheap clutches, a Drive Gear rebuilt trans if yours is wonky and you'll do very little else to it. Miatas are okay, but if you're used to torque you'll prefer one of these. Bonus: we pass 944's pretty regularly.

What about the Camaro Mustang Challenge or the American Iron Series?

aggravator wrote: If you want fun, affordable track time there is only one answer ChumpCar!

Do you run chump car? I don't really see how it is significantly cheaper than a mid-pack spec series car really... the most expensive part of turning any crap car into a real race car is safety equipment and making sure the suspension isn't going to fall off at 100mph and kill you. The rest is class placement. A spec E30 only costs a couple bucks more than any other POS ya can slap a cage in for a DIY builder and it is actually worth something to someone else when you are done.

Tires and entry fees are where all the money gets spent once the car is ready. I've got about $9k (and eleventy billion man hours) in a mid-pack CM/GTS3 car but I'll spend $2400 on tires in a season and $300-$400 a weekend in entry fees. Those costs don't change much no matter where you run.

I've done 5 races, so far. We can agree the real cost isn't the car, but the fee's and consumables. the fuel and tires do add up fast.
I feel the real advantage is that they run endurance races not sprint races, so you can get much more seat time.

Each time I've gotten more than 4 hours of track time (Four hours!!!) during a race weekend, and as much as 6 hours. at a cost of less than $900 per person. with 4 drivers including everything except the car and personal protective equipment.

One of the most wonderful experiences i've had, is seeing the sunrise thru the windshield of a racecar at speed. It was surreal. Racing at night is a blast too.

Joshua wrote: So I know you said you don't want to have to trailer a car to the track, however I thought this might interest you anyway. If you look at the last post he bumped it and is now looking to sell as a roller for 2900 with a separate motor and tranny. http://forum.sccbc.net/YaBB.pl?board=for_sale;action=display;num=1297219089 If I could I would totally buy it!

I reckon ^^^that's^^^ the answer, right there. Buying a ready-built, sorted racecar will be cheaper than preparing one yourself. Sell one or both 911s, continue to daily' the M3, buy cheap tow rig, have plenty of money left over. Or, substitute tow rig and hardcore racer 510 for street-legal racer 510.

Also, I think this is hilarious

2002s, 510s, and Miatas.... why did I have to end up with this XR4Ti.

I go to the school that believes if you can't afford to walk away from it, you can't afford to race/ track it. With that in mind, I bought an E30, although I paid more than I should have for a car with that in mind (mine is too nice) so I have yet to reach that point where I'm willing to risk balling it up.

Consumables for an e30 will less than for an e36 simply due to less weight, smaller tires and a less complicated engine. A missed shift in an e36 m3 is not a cheap mistake, although used engines are generally easier to find than p-car engines.

The idea of a 510 is interesting, although I fear one that be fun on a track would not be street worthy. My long term goal is to build an old Volvo 1800es for vintage racing. After which, the e30 will be sold.

aggravator wrote: Each time I've gotten more than 4 hours of track time (Four hours!!!) during a race weekend, and as much as 6 hours. at a cost of less than $900 per person. with 4 drivers including everything except the car and personal protective equipment.

Most BMWCCA race weekends offer 2 practice, qual and 3 races that total up to about 4-5hrs for $375-450. Occasionally - like the upcoming Stan Parker Memorial at the Glen next weekend - it comes with 8hrs of open track on Friday, two practice sessions, open qual, 1 35 minute sprint, 1 90 minute enduro and a no-points fun race. So approx. 12 hours of track time including 2.5 of competition for $575. That is some good value for the $.

Don't get me wrong - I am not down on Chump Car at all... I just don't see it as much more inexpensive than what I'm doing now in dollars per lap.

Here is my reply...

You can never really find Sanity as a car guy..

Right now I am a sane but broke guy struggling to buy tires for My auto-X Miata...and finding instead...

A couple of well priced Clean 944's....I love the Porsche community, and would love to own one.

Friends father is following through shortly of his threats to sell his one owner Xr4ti'I've always thought of them as wicked cool.

I've always wanted a 911, and I'll probably die without owning one. your a better man than I am for having owned two.

The 510 is pure automotive crack for me, I lust those also.

Spec E30 seems like a good investment once my oldest daughter finishes college next year...another kid out of the house..hmmm...

Good luck to you in whatever you decide.

Giant Purple Snorklewacker wrote: Most BMWCCA race weekends offer 2 practice, qual and 3 races that total up to about 4-5hrs for $375-450. Occasionally - like the upcoming Stan Parker Memorial at the Glen next weekend - it comes with 8hrs of open track on Friday, two practice sessions, open qual, 1 35 minute sprint, 1 90 minute enduro and a no-points fun race. So approx. 12 hours of track time including 2.5 of competition for $575. That is some good value for the $. Don't get me wrong - I am not down on Chump Car at all... I just don't see it as much more inexpensive than what I'm doing now in dollars per lap.

sorry to nit-pic, but how is 4hrs of competition for $900 including entry fees, fuel, tires, brake pads, tow fuel, ect not cheaper than 2.5hrs of competition with an entry fee of $575 plus tires fuel, ect ? or the more usual 90min for $375-450?

sorry I dont count practice in the equation as track days arent expensive and i feel testing/practice should happen at least a week before the event to give you time to make adjustments or do repairs if something breaks. Chumpcar does offer friday practice at some events usually for an additional $100 Then there is also the difference in driving style. With a 24hr endurance race you have to balance speed with wear, while in a sprint race there isnt much, if any, car conservation. this might be a negative to some racers but not me. With chump the cost goes down with more drivers getting less seat time each. so rather than one person with a car bearing all the costs you have 4-6 drivers splitting costs. And when your not driving your teams car is still out competing giving you more vested entertainment.

I'm also not saying there isn't good value in club racing, I know there is.

I would say that the BMW club racing mentioned is a better value since it is, IMO, higher quality. Less contact, better drivers, better cars, safer etc.

It's all a matter of perspective. I'm coming at this from a different angle... See, I've got a '70 Mustang Mach 1. People tell me it's too valuable to modify, drive regularly, or run it too hard. They tell me that I should keep it in the garage and only take it out to cruises and car shows. They tell me that I've got the XR4TI to hammer on, modify, and risk at events.

But see, I've got a problem with all that... I've owned the Mach 1 since I was 15 (23+ years now), and to me it has always been and will always be a car to be driven, modified, and hammered on. That's why I bought it. That's how I treated it for the first 8 years I had it. That's why I had it painted at Maaco when we started the "restoration". That's why it got modified suspension bits, a/c, an overdrive transmission, rear disc brakes, and several little convenience options. That's why it's getting better seats, some additional gauges, and some other stuff.

And as for the "value" of the Mustang over the Merkur XR4TI, let's keep it in perspective. I can get absolutely any part I need for the Mustang, any time, and almost anywhere, and relatively cheaply comparatively. Hell, I can get a brand new complete replacement body.... not the just the panels mind you, but an entire, completely new, fresh-off-the-assembly-line unibody. But if I wreck the Merkur, my options are much much more limited, and probably just as expensive, and at least twice the hassle. So which one is the car that I "can no longer afford to have fun with?" Hmmm....

But to the point, I won't own a car I can't or won't drive, and that means I won't own a car I can't afford to repair (which means doing the work myself for the most part). If that's you too, I say let go of the overpriced garage ornaments and get something you can live with.

In reply to Joshua: While everyone has their own opinion of different series, I would reserve judgement on Chump Car unless you have been personally involved. To the club racing vs. Chump Car comments, if you have ever been to a race, you would see that there are many, many prior and active club racers who take part, and I have heard more than a few times from club racers that they are having more fun racing this series than they ever have in their life. Higher quality cars? arguably yes, depending on the class you are racing in. However, just finished racing Chump Car at IA Speedway, and our lap times on the oval, by the track staffs own admission, were very comparable to their full on stock car series with full tube frame cars and race engines. Better drivers, less contact? I would debate that, as many chumps are club racers, and there were very few contact incidents. How much skill, by multiple drivers does it take to go 3 and 4 wide (yes 4) repeatedly for hours on end around a speedway oval at speeds over 100mph with minimal incidents. I am pretty certain there were less contact incidents/hr at the last chump car race at IA Speedway than any higher up series that I have ever seen on the tube. Safer? I doubt that. Similar safety equipment as scca and nasa. To each their own, but I would reserve comment until you have tried it, which I encourage you to do. It is an absolute blast!!

AugustusGloop wrote: In reply to Joshua: While everyone has their own opinion of different series, I would reserve judgement on Chump Car unless you have been personally involved. To the club racing vs. Chump Car comments, ...

I am racing a few next season (after we build the car... $500 E36 ) with 4 other guys who I race BMW/NASA with. The plan is to fail at Chump car a few times until we have the spares list and general ability to run that long with a reasonable expectation of finishing... then go do the 12hrs of the Point, Devil in the Dark at NJMP and then the 25hrs of Thunderhill. I expect that is a 10yr plan... or just the booze talkin' but ya gotta start somewhere.

I wood knot sell porsches just figure something else out . whoever is in your ear beat the shizzle out of them and make sure they are not doing your wife

Datsun Z cars can be wicked fast track toys and are giveaway priced around here. I've taken a few passenger seat laps at Road A and been just blown away. And there are complete 5.3L LS engines on CL for around $700. How fun could that car be? Budget on the down low and fun over the top! And please never sell the replica unless it is to me and you take the Savation Army card for payment.

These are the only bits I can toss out here:

If the 911's don't do it for you anymore go ahead and sell them.

I can't say anything for the 510. I live in the rust belt. They all disappeared from here a long time ago.

If you still want to hang with your Porsche buddies, the 944 has already been suggested. But depending on your buddies, they might still snub you. If they do you're hanging with the wrong crowd.

If you want something to take to the track with cheap replacement parts I'd say look at a C4 Corvette. Dirt cheap right now and stone ax 350 Chevy V8. Blow the engine? Grab another 350 at whatever HP level you want to pay for.

For the BMW, you are enjoying it as your daily. Could take it to some track days here and there. Moving it to a track toy isn't a bad idea. But that leaves a hole for the daily, and those are some tough shoes to fill.

In reply to Rob_Mopar:

On the insanity scale from 1 to 10, how crazy does it make me when I say I'd rather have a 2nd or 3rd gen Camaro vs. a C4 (or C3) Corvette? I know that it is probably easier to make a C4 handle well, especially with all the tire they carry, but it isn't like the Camaro isn't well supported in that department...