aw614
HalfDork
11/26/24 9:31 p.m.
Has anyone ever cross threaded a lug nut on a stud conversion VW/BMW with "race studs"? Talking with David earlier he suggested I post it here and I mentioned it in the rant thread in the other forum section.
Basically I had tires mounted at the beginning of the year and didn't touch them until today to attempt to rotate them front to back. On my driver side front tire, 2 out of three lug nuts would not come off via 1/2in Craftsman impact rated 1000 ft/lb break away torque, nor did it break the stud. I believe one or two are in the same situation in the rear drive side. I was too pissed to remember.
Here is a picture of the wheel/studs. I installed them sometime back in 2014-2015ish with red Loctite and they have the 5mm Allen socket insert, I tried to loosen the Allen and it broke the socket.
With my past experiences on Honda studs, I would just break them to replace, or the force from the impact or breaker bar would just snap them completely. These race studs seem a lot stronger than what you get on a car with pressed in wheel studs.
Can I even remove the studs via a heat/torch without damaging the wheel? or damaging the hubs?
I am kind of out of luck at going to the shop I went to as the friend who was managing the place isn't there anymore and leadership changed hands, etc.
An inductive heater would probably be able to heat the stud quickly enough that you could heat it and burp it out with the impact gun, either the nut will come off or the stud will unthread but either way the wheel will be out.
Have you tried a breaker bar or a good (big) 4 way wrench? I used to have a super awesome Craftsman 19.2v impact after I saw Bill change an axle with one at a rallycross. After a couple years it couldn't loosen lug nuts unless I only torqued them to 70ft-lb.
This is why I bought the Bauer... and then quit screwing around and bought the Milwaukee. Having the money for a $500 impact and battery instead of a $100 impact and battery also helped. That said, muscles and leverage is still stronger.
With enough protection on the finish of the rim another option is to weld nuts onto the stud and get them out via impact or breaker bar. Do it right after the welding so you have the heat on the loctite.
In reply to Pete. (l33t FS) :
Since Pete brought up the inductive heater, just sharing a video we did on one.
aw614
HalfDork
11/27/24 10:00 a.m.
Pete. (l33t FS) said:
An inductive heater would probably be able to heat the stud quickly enough that you could heat it and burp it out with the impact gun, either the nut will come off or the stud will unthread but either way the wheel will be out.
Have you tried a breaker bar or a good (big) 4 way wrench? I used to have a super awesome Craftsman 19.2v impact after I saw Bill change an axle with one at a rallycross. After a couple years it couldn't loosen lug nuts unless I only torqued them to 70ft-lb.
This is why I bought the Bauer... and then quit screwing around and bought the Milwaukee. Having the money for a $500 impact and battery instead of a $100 impact and battery also helped. That said, muscles and leverage is still stronger.
It did not cross my mind that with the cross threaded stud, I should be able to use that as a "bolt head". With enough force, I should be able to use a breaker bar to get the red loctite off without heat?
On the inductive heater, would some of the cheaper options on Amazon do the job?
Something like this one should work?
https://www.amazon.com/Solary-Magnetic-Induction-Automotive-Flameless/dp/B09262QC6G?source=ps-sl-shoppingads-lpcontext&ref_=fplfs&psc=1&smid=A3BIS2KX0GYGM
I would just get a more powerful impact or a real nice breaker bar and name brand 1/2" drive 6 point socket and give it the berries.
On stuff like this I can't stress how important it is to use good tools. I would definitely reach for my Snap-On 36" breaker bar and 1/2" drive sockets in this case.
Looks like you got good engagement on the nut. Something will let loose - either shearing the stud, or the loctite, or the nut will back off eventually.
Regarding the "1000 ft/lbs", tune in to Torque Test Channel on Youtube, they show what these tools are really capable of. You didnt say battery or air impact - I suspect the actual output is far less than 1000 ft/lbs. To shear a stud like that with an impact puts you into one of the most modern high torque offerings, a consumer grade unit isn't gonna cut it.
93gsxturbo said:
I would just get a more powerful impact or a real nice breaker bar and name brand 1/2" drive 6 point socket and give it the berries.
On stuff like this I can't stress how important it is to use good tools. I would definitely reach for my Snap-On 36" breaker bar and 1/2" drive sockets in this case.
Looks like you got good engagement on the nut. Something will let loose - either shearing the stud, or the loctite, or the nut will back off eventually.
This. Sometimes brute force really is the right answer and this is one of those times.
aw614
HalfDork
11/27/24 4:26 p.m.
93gsxturbo said:
I would just get a more powerful impact or a real nice breaker bar and name brand 1/2" drive 6 point socket and give it the berries.
On stuff like this I can't stress how important it is to use good tools. I would definitely reach for my Snap-On 36" breaker bar and 1/2" drive sockets in this case.
Looks like you got good engagement on the nut. Something will let loose - either shearing the stud, or the loctite, or the nut will back off eventually.
Regarding the "1000 ft/lbs", tune in to Torque Test Channel on Youtube, they show what these tools are really capable of. You didnt say battery or air impact - I suspect the actual output is far less than 1000 ft/lbs. To shear a stud like that with an impact puts you into one of the most modern high torque offerings, a consumer grade unit isn't gonna cut it.
I kind of realized that with the impact rating when my 300 ft/lb had trouble getting my crank pulley bolt off my Honda. Both are battery powered. The 1000 ft/lb one was enough to get a Honda crank pulley bolt off.
I just purchased the induction heater and will try the breaker bar with a 6 point socket when I get them in. I know the induction heater will have future uses with automotive and household diy.
I absolutely love my induction heater.
Follow the directions. My Bolt Buster came with explicit instructions to never use it for more than thirty seconds at a time or it can burn out whatever electrics it has inside. So I'd count to 30, release the button, count to 30 again, apply it again. Usually two applications is plenty to make a stud orange.
Key to success will be working quickly. The induction heater will ONLY heat what is inside the rings, but that heat will transfer to all the cold stuff it's in contact with. Even if you only get it to turn one turn before it binds up again, this will remove the contact so you can reapply heat and this time it won't wick away so fast.
Honda crank bolts are a bad metric for rating an impact gun's torque, incidentally. If you don't have a weighted socket, impacts won't budge them.
Maybe I misunderstood long ago, but I thought that all bolts where supposed to be torqued using lubricant? I have been spaying WD40 on all of my bolts, including wheel studs and nuts for over 50 years and I have never had a nut back off or not be removable except for that time the tire company dry reinstalled them and I had to chisel the acorn nuts off. This was accomplished just using a long extension with a 12" long 1/2" ratchet tightened as hard as I could by hand without hurting my hand.
Here's a cool demonstration of various strength bolts tightened to failure that I discovered while wondering if Grade 8 full thread bolts would work as screw in wheel lug studs.
In reply to VolvoHeretic :
Follow the spec. Usually torque specs are for clean, dry threads, unless specified.
Look up the torque spec for the lug nuts on a Ford truck with flat faced lug nuts. You don't get a number, you get a link to a procedure. (Light motor oil on the threads, and between the nut and its built in washer. If the washer is seized on the nut, you're supposed to replace it.) THEN they tell you the number.
Normal lug nuts, though, are generally clean dry threads.
In reply to Pete. (l33t FS) :
Too bad I've never seen clean studs or nuts unless I sprayed them with WD40.
WD40 isnt a lubricant. But thats a topic for another day.
OP, let us know if you get it freed up and what method worked.
I would be hesitant using an inductive heater as I wouldnt want to damage my beautiful wheels.
93gsxturbo said:
WD40 isnt a lubricant. But thats a topic for another day.
Yes, it's technically a water displacer, hence the "WD". But if it's not a lubricant, someone should tell the manufacturer:
WD-40® Multi-Use Product protects metal from rust and corrosion, penetrates stuck parts, displaces moisture and lubricates almost anything.
aw614
HalfDork
11/29/24 12:52 p.m.
In reply to 93gsxturbo :
They weren't cross threaded, but Pete suggestion of using brute force and a breaker bar (+jack handle extenstion) I got the driver side lug nuts off. They should not be this tight. The studs did not screw themselves off from the hub, but the lug nuts came off. All 5 lug nuts in the rear were overtightented, 2 on the driver side and none on the passenger side.
Glad you got it sorted. Sounds like your "1000 ft-lbs" impact needs a Black Friday Upgrayedd.
As posted above spend a little time on the torque test Chanel and get the best one money allows and or if you are already in a battery eco system at least look to see what that brand rates at. A electric plug in the wall impact gun can be a good investment and are usually not to expensive.
Sometimes there is no substitute for a big breaker bar. I keep several lengths of pipe in my shed ranging from 3-8 feet. I usually brake the socket or the tool if the bolt/nut does not come off or brake first.
dean1484 said:
Sometimes there is no substitute for a big breaker bar. I keep several lengths of pipe in my shed ranging from 3-8 feet. I usually brake the socket or the tool if the bolt/nut does not come off or brake first.
There's a lot of times where an impact, no matter its rating, will just sit there and rattle, while a breaker bar or even just a regular ratchet will just smoothly loosen the bolt. Has to be some sort of stiction thing, seems to happen more with plated fasteners, or things threaded into or through aluminum castings. This is I think the magic behind weighted sockets.
Also, the longer the bolt, the worse it is. Rotary tension bolts are like 18" long and torqued to 25 ft-lb. Impacts won't move them, they just twist and snap back. Need a ratchet to break them free.
Sometimes, though, you break a tool.
aw614
HalfDork
12/1/24 8:37 p.m.
Pete. (l33t FS) said:
dean1484 said:
Sometimes there is no substitute for a big breaker bar. I keep several lengths of pipe in my shed ranging from 3-8 feet. I usually brake the socket or the tool if the bolt/nut does not come off or brake first.
There's a lot of times where an impact, no matter its rating, will just sit there and rattle, while a breaker bar or even just a regular ratchet will just smoothly loosen the bolt. Has to be some sort of stiction thing, seems to happen more with plated fasteners, or things threaded into or through aluminum castings. This is I think the magic behind weighted sockets.
Also, the longer the bolt, the worse it is. Rotary tension bolts are like 18" long and torqued to 25 ft-lb. Impacts won't move them, they just twist and snap back. Need a ratchet to break them free.
Sometimes, though, you break a tool.
My impact felt like it was just sitting there and rattling like you mentioned. When I ran the breaker bar to loosen the lug nuts, you could hear that loud squeal of the lug nut when it was loosening up. I've seen a friend have problems with that rotary bolt, that was fun to watch the frustration there.
On the battery eco-system, I did buy the craftsman due to having other battery powered tools in their ecosystem. Their pole saw, edger, and shopvac are used a lot within my family.
aw614 said:
In reply to 93gsxturbo :
They weren't cross threaded, but Pete suggestion of using brute force and a breaker bar (+jack handle extenstion) I got the driver side lug nuts off. They should not be this tight. The studs did not screw themselves off from the hub, but the lug nuts came off. All 5 lug nuts in the rear were overtightented, 2 on the driver side and none on the passenger side.
Did you replace the studs afterwards?
aw614
HalfDork
12/1/24 10:18 p.m.
codrus (Forum Supporter) said:
aw614 said:
In reply to 93gsxturbo :
They weren't cross threaded, but Pete suggestion of using brute force and a breaker bar (+jack handle extenstion) I got the driver side lug nuts off. They should not be this tight. The studs did not screw themselves off from the hub, but the lug nuts came off. All 5 lug nuts in the rear were overtightented, 2 on the driver side and none on the passenger side.
Did you replace the studs afterwards?
I did not, but an looking at replacing them as the local euro parts distributor has an event next week, I will probably buy them then.
