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foxtrapper
foxtrapper PowerDork
4/3/13 12:11 p.m.
mrwillie wrote: The fuel recovery from pyrolysis is the first thing I thought about when I read this. Once a few of the puzzle pieces are put together, I think there would be potential for profit. The tech is there... it just needs to be applied. A board like this would be a perfect think tank for stuff like this....

It's not new thinking. People have been trying this for decades. Emissions are a major headache with combustion. Costs are another big problem.

We had many tire shredders here some years ago. Almost all are gone now. Only so many landfills and playgrounds to cover. Fibers in the tires, especially steel fibers, are a big problem with the shredding for playgrounds and the like.

Cement kiln combustion of tires has all been abandoned here. Inconsistency and the resulting product contamination, as well emission controls.

Various attempts at melting the tires to recover liquid fuels have failed due to operating costs and again emissions controls.

Steel recovery of the cords has failed for the same basic reasons of melting/burning for fuel. The steel isn't worth enough to offset the cost of recovering it.

fast_eddie_72
fast_eddie_72 UltraDork
4/3/13 2:24 p.m.
jstein77 wrote: I wait until Tire Kingdom is closed and dump them in the bin full of scrap tires in back of the building.

That's what I do.

psteav
psteav GRM+ Memberand Dork
4/3/13 2:36 p.m.
ClemSparks wrote: Maybe it would help if I mention that the reason I'm looking into disposing tires is because I may soon have my own tire mounting machine.

Hey buddy....have I bought you a beer lately?

psteav
psteav GRM+ Memberand Dork
4/3/13 2:41 p.m.

ON a more serious note, giant chop saw with the gnarliest blade you could find/make?

mrwillie
mrwillie HalfDork
4/3/13 2:57 p.m.
foxtrapper wrote:
mrwillie wrote: The fuel recovery from pyrolysis is the first thing I thought about when I read this. Once a few of the puzzle pieces are put together, I think there would be potential for profit. The tech is there... it just needs to be applied. A board like this would be a perfect think tank for stuff like this....
It's not new thinking. People have been trying this for decades. Emissions are a major headache with combustion. Costs are another big problem. We had many tire shredders here some years ago. Almost all are gone now. Only so many landfills and playgrounds to cover. Fibers in the tires, especially steel fibers, are a big problem with the shredding for playgrounds and the like. Cement kiln combustion of tires has all been abandoned here. Inconsistency and the resulting product contamination, as well emission controls. Various attempts at melting the tires to recover liquid fuels have failed due to operating costs and again emissions controls. Steel recovery of the cords has failed for the same basic reasons of melting/burning for fuel. The steel isn't worth enough to offset the cost of recovering it.

I thought pyrolysis was done in a near air tight container w/ the o2 levels very low and controlled. Not just a burning container that vents to the atmosphere. Some of the tests that I have seen involve capturing the gas from the combustion process and condensing it somehow. Have you seen info where the emissions from these situations are high? Not having actually pulled the trigger myself and tried in my backyard, I can only go off of what I read. Can you explain it to me better? Maybe I misunderstood something.

foxtrapper
foxtrapper PowerDork
4/3/13 5:30 p.m.
mrwillie wrote: I thought pyrolysis was done in a near air tight container w/ the o2 levels very low and controlled. Not just a burning container that vents to the atmosphere. Some of the tests that I have seen involve capturing the gas from the combustion process and condensing it somehow. Have you seen info where the emissions from these situations are high? Not having actually pulled the trigger myself and tried in my backyard, I can only go off of what I read. Can you explain it to me better? Maybe I misunderstood something.

I'm familiar with pyrolysis. I do permits on various units quite regularly. Really, they're just an incinerator. A starved air incinerator, but an incinerator none the less.

You can build a pyrolysis unit at home with a soda can. Take the soda can, stuff some wood chips down into it. Place it on a grill. It'll smoke like crazy, without actually burning. That's pyrolysis in a nutshell, woodchips in a soda can, baking on a fire. Makes charcoal by the way.

To make life exciting, soak the woodchips with bacon fat or such before placing them in the can. This is a real problem with lots of pyrolysis, contamination of the charge. Not only does one get smoke and fires and sometimes even explosions, but it's darn hard on the soda can, and the grill.

A bit less exciting, poke some holes in the can. Now your woodchips burn up, and you get no charcoal, just ash.

But wait, pyrolysis makers say there is no smoke. There is either sleight of hand, or they didn't tell you about that expensive secondary chamber. A secondary chamber is essentially an incinerator that you run the smoke from the first incinerator through. This secondary chamber is bigger and more expensive to fuel than the first incinerator.

Conventional smoke does burn in that secondary chamber, so you get little visible emissions. But, many of the nasties, particularly the metal nasties and the dioxin type nasties , go right on through. In fact, that secondary chamber that reduces the smoke and smells tends to drive the metals and dioxin emissions...up. Has to do with more thorough volatilization.

Sleight of hand? Surely I jest. I liked one that was for reacting, among other things, gunpowder. The system was going to be completely sealed, preventing any gasses from escaping. Gunpowder, heated until it ignites, in a perfectly sealed container. Sleight of hand. The army was very excited about this.

The latest pyrolysis wonder I'm dealing with is a magical unit that will produce drinking water and unlimited electricity from sewage. Seriously. They want to build a power plant to power the pyrolysis power plant, and somehow filling the pyrolysis chambers with human sewage and running electric arcs through it will create unlimited electricity and lots of fresh electricity for the town. They've already got a construction site and the town is convinced this is going to be nirvana (they do have water and sewage problems).

Apis_Mellifera
Apis_Mellifera Reader
4/3/13 7:39 p.m.

I break the bead with my HF manual bead breaker. Then I take a serrated knife and cut both sidewalls all the way around by hand out next to the tread. Then the tread falls off and I fold it in half and roll it up. I then wire the wrap to stay rolled. Finally I notch the sidewall down to the bead and use bolt cutters to cut the bead. I make three more cuts to make quadrants of the sidewalls. All this fits into a standard kitchen trash bag. The operation takes about 10 minutes and generates no smoke. An steak knife will slice around both sides in a few seconds with surprisingly little effort.

mrwillie
mrwillie HalfDork
4/4/13 12:20 p.m.

@ClemSparks -- sorry for going off-topic so much

@foxtrapper -- thanks for the real, non-marketing hype. Is there any publicly-avail info on the second site you mentioned? And would you mind being PM'd later on when I have questions?

nicksta43
nicksta43 Dork
4/4/13 2:14 p.m.
Apis_Mellifera wrote: I break the bead with my HF manual bead breaker. Then I take a serrated knife and cut both sidewalls all the way around by hand out next to the tread. Then the tread falls off and I fold it in half and roll it up. I then wire the wrap to stay rolled. Finally I notch the sidewall down to the bead and use bolt cutters to cut the bead. I make three more cuts to make quadrants of the sidewalls. All this fits into a standard kitchen trash bag. The operation takes about 10 minutes and generates no smoke. An steak knife will slice around both sides in a few seconds with surprisingly little effort.

Very interesting. Anybody have a good way to break the beads without a bead breaker?

foxtrapper
foxtrapper PowerDork
4/4/13 2:39 p.m.
mrwillie wrote: @foxtrapper -- thanks for the real, non-marketing hype. Is there any publicly-avail info on the second site you mentioned? And would you mind being PM'd later on when I have questions?

Sure, PM me any time you wish.

As for the second site I mentioned, it's kinda shadowy, but here's a few links.

This is for the town and their dreams: http://www.wastenotcarroll.org/apps/blog/show/12329149-taneytown-learns-more-about-gasification-plant-proposal

And these are two for the company/group selling them a monorail (Simpsons reference). http://www.alfagroup.org/ and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alfa_Group

ClemSparks
ClemSparks PowerDork
4/10/13 3:39 p.m.

"Monorail, monorail, monorail!"

psteav
psteav GRM+ Memberand Dork
4/11/13 9:25 a.m.

"I shouldn't have stopped for that haircut."

ronholm
ronholm HalfDork
4/12/13 6:54 p.m.
nicksta43 wrote: Very interesting. Anybody have a good way to break the beads without a bead breaker?

Use a tireless wheel bolted to a car and a trustworthy jack to lower the rim of the wheel against the bead of the tire.

Carefully.

Apis_Mellifera
Apis_Mellifera Reader
4/12/13 8:55 p.m.

I've used a bench vise to break the beads, but that was on 145sr13 Spridget wheels. I just used the above method I described on GM alloys. Before I had the bead breaker and when faced by a larger Rover wheel, I used the board on the sidewall method and drove up on it. I've change both street tires and racing slicks by hand for years with nothing but two Dunlop tire tools and elbow grease. I'm cheap. Buying a HF bead breaker was worth money.

I bought this one: 92961

With a 20% coupon, that's $40

ClemSparks
ClemSparks PowerDork
4/15/13 10:53 a.m.
Apis_Mellifera wrote: Buying a HF bead breaker was worth money. I bought this one: 92961 With a 20% coupon, that's $40

I've always wondered how well these bead breakers work (because I'm also cheap and can change a tire with just the irons...if I have a way to get the bead broken loose).

I've always thought the manual bead breakers might be a crapshoot because even the tire machine bead breakers struggle on...oh..say 50% of the tires I've done.

Do the manual ones work that well? Have there been tires on which you cannot break the bead?

Thanks!
Clem

MadScientistMatt
MadScientistMatt UltraDork
4/15/13 11:22 a.m.
fasted58 wrote: Wouldn't cryogenic processing be more efficient than mechanical? Could a small scale cryo plant be feasible? It piqued my interest some years ago when recycling wasn't just eco-green anymore but $ green. I haven't followed it much since.

This has me wondering if it could be done at home. Get a sturdy enough container to soak the tires in liquid nitrogen, some tongs to pull them out, and hit them with a hammer...

ClemSparks
ClemSparks PowerDork
4/15/13 11:30 a.m.

Container. Check.
Hammer. No problem.
Tongs. can't be that hard to round up.

Liquid Nitrogen?! In quantities big enough to freeze a tire. That sounds expensive and hectic.

But man...that would be fun to play with!

volvoclearinghouse
volvoclearinghouse Reader
4/15/13 11:35 a.m.

A pointy dirt shovel and a pair of sturdy work boots makes a good bead breaker.

I have about 50 (no exagerration...possibly more) worthless tires on wheels that I am stuck with. No one wants the wheels, and I can't recycle either unless they are separated. Which could end up being a several-hundred-dollar proposition.

I've tried sawzalling tires off, but if I'm trying to save the wheel (I do want some of them) it's tricky. And sawzall blades ain't exactly free.

In SC, you are allowed to bring a certain number of tires to the landfill every year- # cars you have regg'd in the state times 4. Which sucks if you own a dually, I guess. ;-/ Though if you only bring one or two at a time you can sometimes just place them in the tire dumpster without them logging it.

Dumps and landfills are getting more and more restrictive. I can understand why, to a degree, but the unintended side effect seems to be more interest in "alternative landfilling" (a.k.a. "dumping stuff on the side of the road"). I'd be in favor of a $/pound charge for everyone that was reasonable enough so that most people wouldn't bother trying to landfill it themselves, but enough to recoup some of the op costs of the landfill. Basically, a PAYT (Pay-As-You-Throw) system.

MadScientistMatt
MadScientistMatt UltraDork
4/15/13 1:26 p.m.
ClemSparks wrote: Container. Check. Hammer. No problem. Tongs. can't be that hard to round up. Liquid Nitrogen?! In quantities big enough to freeze a tire. That sounds expensive and hectic. But man...that would be fun to play with!

You'd need to put down a deposit for the container, but the liquid nitrogen itself isn't too bad. It's about the same price as milk. It may not be as economical as some of the other suggestions, but it seems like it would make up for it in entertainment value.

ClemSparks
ClemSparks PowerDork
4/15/13 2:03 p.m.
MadScientistMatt wrote: It may not be as economical as some of the other suggestions, but it seems like it would make up for it in entertainment value.

I could probably charge people, as in a carnival, to destroy tires for me, lol.

Clem

mrwillie
mrwillie HalfDork
4/17/13 10:24 a.m.

I found this tire crusher on our local CL, and it kinda looks like one I saw on youtube. Its $3k and solves the issue of sep the tires from the rims( the rims that you dont want anyway...... ).

http://raleigh.craigslist.org/pts/3748938167.html

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