Dave M said:In reply to lnlds :
No such thing? Also doesn't the ND have street-safe rollover protection built in?
But we are talking about a car he wants to use at the track. The stock rollover hoops are not only weaker than a proper bolt-in roll bar, it's also much lower than your helmeted head. IE, worthless in a rollover scenario.
mustang_fanatic said:First let me acknowledge this topic is overdone so I apologize for posting another thread. Having said that, I did not want to hijack someone else's thread.
In very early 2020, I am going to purchase a new daily driver that I want to double as an autocross/HPDE car. I am agnostic to RWD vs FWD vs AWD, just need a great platform that I can drive and enjoy.
I am looking for recommendations from current owners etc.
Some I am considering are (all are MY 2020)
- VW Golf GTI
- Toyota 86
- Subaru WRX
- Ford Mustang Ecoboost Fastback (base car, no options)
Feel free to suggest others. Look forward to recommendations and discussion
Buy an 86/BRZ. Buy cheap 17x9s and throw sticky 245/40/17s on them. Flush the brakes with good fluid and add your favorite track pads (I'm partial to Carbotech/GLoc, but it's up to you). Add a QUALITY oil cooler, Greddy or Jackson Racing is the way to go.
Focus on driving and watch how many people with far more expensive cars you annoy/embarrass.
If you want more HP? A catless-header and E85 tune is worth a big chunk of torque in the midrange and ~30whp up top.
z31maniac said:Dave M said:In reply to lnlds :
No such thing? Also doesn't the ND have street-safe rollover protection built in?
But we are talking about a car he wants to use at the track. The stock rollover hoops are not only weaker than a proper bolt-in roll bar, it's also much lower than your helmeted head. IE, worthless in a rollover scenario.
Yeah, which is why the 86 makes sense. I used to get really freaked out driving my convertible with a track roll bar and no helmet on the street. One accident and you're toast.
I dislike being on track in an expensive car. I'm not wealthy enough to walk away from 5 figures if I ball it up and E36 M3 happens on track. More E36 M3 happens with these new high powered machines.
For a fun track toy/DD/autocrosser I'd look for an obsolete STR prepped NB Miata and slap 275 A7 Hoosiers on it for autocross and play CSP for FTD glory. SM-7 take offs for track days will be cheap and secure. And with the top down, who cares if it's older and cheaper as you tool around town.
In reply to KyAllroad (Jeremy) :
Track Insurance, worth every penny.
accordionfolder said:In reply to KyAllroad (Jeremy) :
Track Insurance, worth every penny.
Was going to say the same, although if it's your DD, a $3500-5000 deductible plus not having your car is still a PITA.
I agree the ND Miata would be a great track car but since I need the car to pull double duty as my daily driver, I think there are other cars that strike a better balance, feel free to disagree. .
Agree that track Insurance is definitely required.
I have not driven the current Camaro but it is certainly worthy of consideration.
mustang_fanatic said:I agree the ND Miata would be a great track car but since I need the car to pull double duty as my daily driver, I think there are other cars that strike a better balance, feel free to disagree. .
Agree that track Insurance is definitely required.
I have not driven the current Camaro but it is certainly worthy of consideration.
My guess is even the non-V8 cars are going to have a much higher consumable cost based on weight.......even ignoring the higher power than something like a Twin.
This Edmunds review of the 2.0t 1LE even mentions the track warranty.https://www.edmunds.com/car-news/first-impressions/2019-chevrolet-camaro-turbo-1le-first-drive.html
racerfink - I wrote earlier: "The "track warranty" has only been mentioned through media interviews, etc." Links were then posted along these lines. I'm not trying to make this a fight, but imagine you're in court with GM for not honoring their warranty; They point to their manual which says track use is forbidden under the terms of the warranty. Your lawyer's comeback is a media article. Maybe you win... I'm sitting here telling you they don't always honor their warranty under normal, explicitly covered scenarios.
There are stories of Mazda repeatedly replacing AutoXed transmissions from the same ND owners. I'd suppose it reasonably likely they'd replace other people's transmissions, but I would not be surprised if they declined.
Snrub said:racerfink - I wrote earlier: "The "track warranty" has only been mentioned through media interviews, etc." Links were then posted along these lines. I'm not trying to make this a fight, but imagine you're in court with GM for not honoring their warranty; They point to their manual which says track use is forbidden under the terms of the warranty. Your lawyer's comeback is a media article. Maybe you win... I'm sitting here telling you they don't always honor their warranty under normal, explicitly covered scenarios.
There are stories of Mazda repeatedly replacing AutoXed transmissions from the same ND owners. I'd suppose it reasonably likely they'd replace other people's transmissions, but I would not be surprised if they declined.
Yeah I'd be leery of any new car getting warranty coverage on the track. Having said that, you *are* supposed to be able to track your 1LE or Vette. I recall that an instructor around here tracks his new Vette and mentioned to me that they warranty covered a transmission problem that came up at the track (and they even watched the data recorder footage with him).
IMHO a cheap, dedicated track car is the way to go, but in my experience that quickly escalated to a truck and trailer as well!
That article has a specific quote from Mr. Camaro himself, saying that if you don’t modify your car at all, not even a K&N filter, and the car fails on the track, it’s covered. How is that not clear?
“
Chevrolet might be one of the first manufacturers to actually extend its warranty coverage to track use. That's huge.
The man behind it? Non other than Al Oppenheiser, the Camaro ZL1's chief engineer, a diehard automotive wizard who gives credence to the "gearhead" appellation. "If you're not modifying your car and you take your production car to a track day and you have an issue with one of your parts, it's covered under warranty," he recently told Motor Authority. "We know when somebody changes their ECM calibration and we know if they changed to a cold-air intake, we can tell all that. But driving it as you break it in from the dealership, if you have a half-shaft or whatever, it's covered."
That's right: Go on, take your Camaro to the track, the parking lot, the dragstrip. If you miss a shift weaving through the cones and a conrod punches through the hood at 14,000 RPM (unlikely), then you can luxuriate in the fact that you won't need to sell your firstborn for a moment of self-indulgence. But, there's that caveat—you must resist the temptation of adding more horsepower, swapping out parts, and your beautiful ride must remain factory stock. “
Current FRS owner who has tracked the car in over 30 events in the past three years. Great car, can keep up with many more cars than you'd think if you're somewhat skilled. The comparisons with other cars through magazines don't really do it justice as the tires are not equivalent (and stock ones suck...), although likely not faster than a Camaro. Consumables are cheap as mentioned, and it can haul a E36 M3load of stuff (I've had four tires and my tools and jack fit pretty easily).
Usually the miatas I see on track are mostly track rats vs NDs. They are great cars and super cheap to run, but the safety issue with convertible plus lack of space made me pick a FRS (same issues with s2k).
At the end i think it comes down to preference between a twin or a camaro (the only two cars in my consideration set if I were in your shoes). Camaro will be faster and have warranty (putting aside the debate above) but it's heavier, will cost more per hour. The twins are light on their feet and can more than hold their own, cheaper, but likely not as fast.
How experienced are you?
Randy Pobst just posted on his Facebook page he is looking for a 2019 1LT 1LE 2.0t for a personal car. I suspect he’ll be making an assault on the D Street National Championship in 2020.
Slight threadjack - what's the skinny on the earlier (?-2018) 1LS 1LE V6 cars? This generation of crammits have peaked my curiosity more than any other, but I have a hard time with the 2019 front fascia updates, plus you know... I like depreciation.
Matt B said:Slight threadjack - what's the skinny on the earlier (?-2018) 1LS 1LE V6 cars? This generation of crammits have peaked my curiosity more than any other, but I have a hard time with the 2019 front fascia updates, plus you know... I like depreciation.
Same stuff under the hood. Buddy got a V61LE 2018 on clearance last year. Just have to keep changing the oil per the manual to have any chance at maintaining the warranty with track stuff.
z31maniac said:mustang_fanatic said:I agree the ND Miata would be a great track car but since I need the car to pull double duty as my daily driver, I think there are other cars that strike a better balance, feel free to disagree. .
Agree that track Insurance is definitely required.
I have not driven the current Camaro but it is certainly worthy of consideration.
My guess is even the non-V8 cars are going to have a much higher consumable cost based on weight.......even ignoring the higher power than something like a Twin.
Agree that consumables will be higher but it seems the 1LE would be a car with a greater "upside" that would require fewer modifications to go faster as the nut the behind the wheel (me) improves. I would like to know what others think but the twins might need more serious upgrades to go to the next level which has the double penalty of cost of modification and decreased reliability. Point being that the higher consumable costs for the 1LE might be a wash over the life of the car given the mods necessary to another car like either of the twins
bcp2011 said:Current FRS owner who has tracked the car in over 30 events in the past three years. Great car, can keep up with many more cars than you'd think if you're somewhat skilled. The comparisons with other cars through magazines don't really do it justice as the tires are not equivalent (and stock ones suck...), although likely not faster than a Camaro. Consumables are cheap as mentioned, and it can haul a E36 M3load of stuff (I've had four tires and my tools and jack fit pretty easily).
Usually the miatas I see on track are mostly track rats vs NDs. They are great cars and super cheap to run, but the safety issue with convertible plus lack of space made me pick a FRS (same issues with s2k).
At the end i think it comes down to preference between a twin or a camaro (the only two cars in my consideration set if I were in your shoes). Camaro will be faster and have warranty (putting aside the debate above) but it's heavier, will cost more per hour. The twins are light on their feet and can more than hold their own, cheaper, but likely not as fast.
How experienced are you?
Great perspective, thank you so much for sharing. Helps a ton to hear from current drivers of both cars.
Completely agree that my two best choices are either one of the twins or the Camaro. Consumables will be more with the Camaro and daily driving is likely similar between the two although I have a feeling the twins are better suited to the "cut and thrust" of the daily commute and somewhat fly under the radar relative to other commuters. With the Camaro, I am sure every wannabe racer wants to challenge you to a duel regardless of whether they are driving a Corvette or a 20 yr old minivan.
Experience level is definitely novice. I did a fair number of track day events in the late '90's early 2000's with a Fox body Mustang I had at the time. While it was great fun, that platform was not the best suited to road course duty and besides that car is long gone now.
mustang_fanatic said:Agree that consumables will be higher but it seems the 1LE would be a car with a greater "upside" that would require fewer modifications to go faster as the nut the behind the wheel (me) improves. I would like to know what others think but the twins might need more serious upgrades to go to the next level which has the double penalty of cost of modification and decreased reliability. Point being that the higher consumable costs for the 1LE might be a wash over the life of the car given the mods necessary to another car like either of the twins
This is starting to get a little philosophical. Are you looking to maximize lap times? Are you trying to push yourself as a driver? Are you trying to maximize reliability and fast(ish) times? Do you just want to be in a fast car on the track? Nobody can answer that besides you.
The 1LE is a *very* strong proposition between the warranty and weight and power, but I haven't driven one. If i were in the market for a new car in that price range it'll be up there with the twins, no doubt. But if you think you need to spend a ton of money on a twin to have fun or be fast (relative here...), I think that's just not true. The only thing you need besides brake fluid/pads/tires (which you'd need in any car for track duty) that may be extra on the twins vs. a Camaro is an oil cooler (500 bucks). Everything else will work fine. Yes, it'll be better with a header and tune, and an alignment with more camber, and better suspension bits, blah blah blah, but the same is true for every car. So it then comes back to the question of what are you trying to achieve and what are the things that matter for you.
Lastly, I know you know this, but driver is the most important thing than anything else. The video below is a friend from the same club that I run with who was keeping up with a Viper in his BRZ (all stock, except XP10 pads, fluids, front camber bolts and RS4 tires on stock wheels). And this is in NASA Great Lakes DE4 group, so it's not like he's running with beginners... I actually have his data and I myself have data. Having done this for three years and despite better suspension and wider tires and more power I'm still not matching his speed in some corners. So - if driver development is the goal, the car is just the vessel to help you learn.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RH6sxjUXuvE
Sorry if this comes across as preachy - not intended as such, and certainly don't want to seem like i'm biased for the twins. They're both great cars!
mustang_fanatic said:z31maniac said:mustang_fanatic said:I agree the ND Miata would be a great track car but since I need the car to pull double duty as my daily driver, I think there are other cars that strike a better balance, feel free to disagree. .
Agree that track Insurance is definitely required.
I have not driven the current Camaro but it is certainly worthy of consideration.
My guess is even the non-V8 cars are going to have a much higher consumable cost based on weight.......even ignoring the higher power than something like a Twin.
Agree that consumables will be higher but it seems the 1LE would be a car with a greater "upside" that would require fewer modifications to go faster as the nut the behind the wheel (me) improves. I would like to know what others think but the twins might need more serious upgrades to go to the next level which has the double penalty of cost of modification and decreased reliability. Point being that the higher consumable costs for the 1LE might be a wash over the life of the car given the mods necessary to another car like either of the twins
I posted that very thing higher up on this page, but all it "needs" are the following:
Good fluids and pads
Quality oil cooler
Then as you get more serious, you can put sticky tires on the stock wheels. Or go wider, header and tune, etc.
Oh and let me check my garage when I get home, I think I still have a brand new set of pads (front and rear) for the Twins that would be considered an intermediate level track pad.
If I haven't already thrown them out, I'll get them to you CHEAP. Like pay shipping and enough to buy me a bottle of bourbon or something.
They were close to $300 new.
bcp2011 said:Sorry if this comes across as preachy - not intended as such, and certainly don't want to seem like i'm biased for the twins. They're both great cars!
Thanks for your point of view, definitely not preachy, just good thoughtful dialog and agree we are getting philosophical. My goal is to push myself as a driver, enjoy time on track rather then spending time wrenching in the pits (I have a '67 Mustang Fastback I am restoring that more than satisfies my mechanical urges) So I want to improve myself as a driver in a car that delivers reliable performance. I have been around long enough to know there are faster cars and better drivers so going for the fastest lap for a given run group is not a unicorn I am interested in chasing.
Great video! Definitely a good driver and impressed by his smoothness and the predictability of the car's handling, very minor steering corrections required to go fast and give the Viper fits in the corners.
In reply to z31maniac :
I'll take those pads if the OP doesn't want them.
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