Dealers are still slime-holes.

keethrax wrote: As I view unscrupulous as worse than naive, my sympathies are with the customer, but that doesn't mean I don't recognize their role in this. A less naive customer would have asked, and then the dealer loses both the short term money-grab and the long term customer. A much better outcome. Find a new dealer or independent shop that isn't out to hose you and everybody who should win, wins.

ooooorrr...the mazda dealer could have done what my dealer does, explain the difference between the factory recomended 30k service and what they recomend. then the customer can decide if they think the added value is worth the added cost, which it usually isn't since its usually a bunch of high-margin services that make the tech and the advisor more money. not that there's anything wrong with them making more money, but the customer should be the one making the choice, not the service advisor.

Strizzo wrote:

keethrax wrote: As I view unscrupulous as worse than naive, my sympathies are with the customer, but that doesn't mean I don't recognize their role in this. A less naive customer would have asked, and then the dealer loses both the short term money-grab and the long term customer. A much better outcome. Find a new dealer or independent shop that isn't out to hose you and everybody who should win, wins.

ooooorrr...the mazda dealer could have done what my dealer does, explain the difference between the factory recomended 30k service and what they recomend.

Exactly. A good shop (note that I'm not specifying dealership, as that's not really relevant) will make sure that even a naive customer isn't surprised - regardless of if they're trying to pad the bill with extras or not. It's quite possible that a customer will walk in for a 30k service and not expect anything more than an oil change, and a good shop will make sure that customer understands what will be done, why and how much it will cost. It's good for business to take care of your customer, and that includes answering the questions they should have asked but didn't.

Strizzo wrote:

keethrax wrote: As I view unscrupulous as worse than naive, my sympathies are with the customer, but that doesn't mean I don't recognize their role in this. A less naive customer would have asked, and then the dealer loses both the short term money-grab and the long term customer. A much better outcome. Find a new dealer or independent shop that isn't out to hose you and everybody who should win, wins.

ooooorrr...the mazda dealer could have done what my dealer does, explain the difference between the factory recomended 30k service and what they recomend. then the customer can decide if they think the added value is worth the added cost, which it usually isn't since its usually a bunch of high-margin services that make the tech and the advisor more money. not that there's anything wrong with them making more money, but the customer should be the one making the choice, not the service advisor.

Certainly. Which is what my (mazda even) dealer does. This dealer chose not to. As such, they deserve to lose the long term business. Not that I've ever had anything done by my dealer, but that's a function of it being 200+ miles from home. The price of living in the middle of nowhere, just ask the guys who drove all the way up to pick up the cheap MR2 I sold in the $200X section...

A dealer that does what you suggest would lose the unscrupulous adjective. At least as far as this particular transaction is concerned. At that point, both the dealer and the customer can win. The dealer makes less this time around, but makes more long term because they have a repeat loyal customer.

Keith wrote: It's good for business to take care of your customer, and that includes answering the questions they should have asked but didn't.

Exactly.

Wow...you guys have had really crappy luck with dealers. I've dealt with all kinds, small shops, big dealers, large chain dealers, and I've had good luck every time.

Maybe it's just the individual salesmen, because there are still the slimey guys out there, but I would like to think that most dealers are not going to bite the hand that feeds them. Competition is a beautiful thing.

keethrax wrote: Find a new dealer or independent shop that isn't out to hose you and everybody who should win, wins.

In my experience with independant shops, most are worse than any dealer I've worked for or experienced. They'll sell complete brake jobs (calipers, hoses and rotors) when only pads are needed...sell $2000 worth of A/C stuff when it needed only a clutch (that I had already quoted for half the price), sell "tune-ups" for cars that require only a spark plug change...... To blanket statement that indy shops are better is a lie as well.

Like I said before.... blaming others and takng NO responsibility for your actions is getting old.

I guess I'm really lucky or very smart. I deal only with an independant garage that is very clear about what they are going to do and how much it's going to cost. If they discover anything that needs corrected while working on the car, I get a phone call. When I pick up the car, the only additional charge is sales tax. No greasy seat stains. If I'm broke and need the car, they'll hold my check for a few days. Ten years, no complaints. They did mis diagnose a MAF problem once. Took it right back in, fixed it, two hours. I like Hardee's Tires in Hollywood FL.

Bobzilla wrote:

keethrax wrote: Find a new dealer or independent shop that isn't out to hose you and everybody who should win, wins.

. To blanket statement that indy shops are better is a lie as well.

Umm... I didn't. Or didn't mean to if I did.

The "that isn't out to hose you" was meant to modify both new dealer and independent shop. There are good and bad ones of both.

Like I said before.... blaming others and takng NO responsibility for your actions is getting old.

Ah yes, the old chestnut of personal responsibility trumping all. "It's OK to be dishonest/unethical as long as you only trick the naive. They deserve it" By that logic scamming of all types should be legal. After all, only the gullible fall for it right?

This coming from someone solidly defending the dealer in this case clearly demonstrates exactly what is wrong with the dealership/industry as a whole.

More importantly, rather than bitching about how terrible "X" shop is when you claim to have had the issue before, do the maintenance yourself. This IS still Grassroots Motorsports isn't it? Even being able to get things at ruh-tardedly low labor rates I still do it myself. Why pay anything when I can do it myself for free?

keethrax wrote: Ah yes, the old chestnut of personal responsibility trumping all. "It's OK to be dishonest/unethical as long as you only trick the naive. They deserve it" By that logic scamming of all types should be legal. After all, only the gullible fall for it right? This coming from someone solidly defending the dealer in this case clearly demonstrates exactly what is wrong with the dealership/industry as a whole.

I never have once said it was right. Look through my posts and tell me otherwise. I'm merely saying quit laying all the blame on someone else when you're equally at fault. To say that the customer did nothing at all wrong by not protecting themselves is not right either. The blame lays square on both parties shoulders. We do not pull stupid stunts like this thread. If the place I worked for did, or started, I would find a new employer. In fact, 5 years ago I did. Because I spend mytime being an upright, solid person and enjoy working for owners that believe the same principal I do take exception to blanketly calling all dealers thieves. There are bad apples in every field, but those of us that are the good ones have to work hard against the negative stereotypes.

I am not defending this particular dealership. I am merely pointing out what I thought was an obvious practice: Get a price FIRST. Once you sign your name, you're responsible.

Bobzilla wrote:

keethrax wrote: Ah yes, the old chestnut of personal responsibility trumping all. "It's OK to be dishonest/unethical as long as you only trick the naive. They deserve it" By that logic scamming of all types should be legal. After all, only the gullible fall for it right? This coming from someone solidly defending the dealer in this case clearly demonstrates exactly what is wrong with the dealership/industry as a whole.

I never have once said it was right. Look through my posts and tell me otherwise. I'm merely saying quit laying all the blame on someone else when you're equally at fault.

Then why do you keep replying to me, where I said (repeatedly) that both were at fault.

Both at fault? Sure, I already said as much more than once. Equally at fault though? I don't buy it.

There are different types of "wrong". The dealership was wrong on purpose, the customer by mistake. And being wrong on purpose in a way designed to hurt someone else is worse than being wrong by mistake in a way that hurts yourself.

Everybody makes stupid/naive/whatever mistakes. I'm sure you have, and you can bet your ass I have. Not everybody is a slimy/unethical. As slimy/unethical is deliberate and by choice, they hold a disproportionate (but not 100%) slice of the blame as far as I'm concerned.

Bobzilla wrote: There are bad apples in every field, but those of us that are the good ones have to work hard against the negative stereotypes.

Repeatedly attacking the customer does little (nothing) to fight those stereotypes. If your attitude towards the customer in this thread represents the "good" dealers, that speaks very poorly for the good ones, and even worse for the rest. Thus, if anything, it reinforces the stereotype.

Of course, because you know so much about me and can make statements to my character, my customer service and knowledge base. I;m sure you are much better at all these things than I could ever be. Unless you actually know me, or how I conduct myself, you can leave your personal insults out of this. I do not appreciate some e-thug telling me who I am and how I conduct business.

Bobzilla wrote: you can leave your personal insults out of this. I do not appreciate some e-thug telling me who I am and how I conduct business.

Man, I am not going to let this one stand. You have, time and again, been just about the closest thing to an e-thug there is on this board. You haven't tried very hard to leave personal insults out of your posts, so don't expect much sympathy on this point.

Bobzilla wrote: Of course, because you know so much about me and can make statements to my character, my customer service and knowledge base. I;m sure you are much better at all these things than I could ever be. Unless you actually know me, or how I conduct myself, you can leave your personal insults out of this. I do not appreciate some e-thug telling me who I am and how I conduct business.

Umm.. I was taking you at your word that you are honest and trustworthy. I tend to thing anyone who hangs out on the GRM boards is a good guy (unless they are in fact, a girl...), yourself very much included. If you'd prefer me not to, I guess I could do that instead.

My point was that if the above board, above average guys (a group which I am happy to put you in simply based on the fact that you're a GRMer and said so) are in the habit of attacking the customers as you did in this very thread, then that reflects poorly on the good guys and even worse on the average or below average guys. And further, if you're stated goal is combating the negative image of dealerships, attacking customers is likely counterproductive.

Much like a few posts ago when you got on me for saying that independent shops = good and dealers = bad, I think one of us is failing. Either me in writing, or you in reading. In case it's me, I apologize. The only other option I can think of is that you're intentionally twisting things, and I like to think that you're not. Again that whole I give GRMers a pretty darn big benefit of the doubt in almost all situations.

This is the interwebby. Written words can never convey the correct texture and meaning that the spoken word can in conversations. Therefore, conversing here is about half guesswork on reading someone's intent and half the written word. So fail takes over on all accounts.

I am not attacking anyone here. Merely, I am confused and lost that people do not have the common sense to ask things like "how much" before having somethign done. That goes for ordering coffee to having a house built. I mean, you don;t go to a house builder and say "Build me that house" then get mad when it costs way more than you though it should. Of course not. I think EVERYONE should use this common sense approach to life and get a quote before they just sign their life away.

I'm guessing the thoughts in my head and the words my fingers type don't correlate to the meaning I am trying to convey.

Josh wrote:

Bobzilla wrote: you can leave your personal insults out of this. I do not appreciate some e-thug telling me who I am and how I conduct business.

Man, I am not going to let this one stand. You have, time and again, been just about the closest thing to an e-thug there is on this board. You haven't tried very hard to leave personal insults out of your posts, so don't expect much sympathy on this point.

I'm thinking you have me confused with someone else here. that or you're taking anything I type waaaaaaaaaaaaaayyyyyyyyyyy too seriously.

I've been to lots of dealers like that.

Once, I was looking for a Camaro Z28 or SS a couple years after they went out of production. Went to a Chevy dealer that had two and tried to get them to let me take a look. First response I got was "Yeah sure, why not, I work on commission here, I'm only starvin'." Uh, alright Sunshine. Just get the damn keys. He walks me over to them, huffing and puffing the whole way. He says "Get in."

I tell him I think the security alarm is still active, he says it isn't. Uh, alright. I open the door and what do you know, it goes off. So he grabs me by the shoulder and yanks me backward away from the car so that I almost fall over as he's trying to shut the alarm off. Now I'm pissed, but it was actually kind of hard to find a decent late model V8 F-body in my area at the time, so I just get in. I'm sitting in it for about 30 seconds before I get irritated enough by his sighing and grunting, so I get up and leave with a "Thanks buddy." He mumbles "Yeah whatever."

Same owner, but at the Dodge dealership. Usually when somebody is getting a car they want me to come along. My parents went to look at the Magnums a couple years ago and asked me to come with them the next time I was in town. The sales girl there brings us all straight to an SRT-8 and proceeds to tell us that it's exactly the same car as the Dodge Viper, just more convenient because it has a station wagon body. I'm not as good at holding in my laughter as my father. "Same engine, same chassis, same everything."

The only dealership I find that doesn't ever resort to any slimeball tactics is Leith Chrysler/Jeep. My parents bought a Cirrus there when it opened in the mid 90s. They got a Grand Cherokee a few years later. I bought my Wrangler somewhere else, but it has been there for service. After leaving the Dodge dealership and their mythical Viper station wagon they bought a Commander. For anyone in the area, they get a very good recommendation. Take it from someone who's been to nearly every dealership within a day's drive. A bad dealership wouldn't necessarily discourage me from getting a car I really wanted, we still got a Chevy.

Not necessarily bad experiences, but back when I was still looking for a Camaro I went to a couple small-time used car lots. The first had a green '96 or '97 Z28, dusty as hell though. The place didn't look like it had much business. When me and my brother in law pulled up, the only guy on the lot ran inside. Probably why they didn't get much business. It had some rickety door and when I tried to get the thing open, it probably sounded like I was gonna bring the whole building down on us. For whatever reason, the guy didn't want to talk.

The other dealership was named something like "Honest _____'s Used Cars" and the guy had a cowboy hats and big cowboy boots. I got a real kick out of that (no pun intended). I spotted a black late-model Trans Am. He saw me poking around near it, so he launched into the whole stereotypical used-car salesman pitch. The car looked a little beat, and I saw holes where a roll cage had once been. I asked him if the car had been modified and he said it wasn't. I passed on the car. It might not have been raced or tracked, but it sure looked worn for a 3 year old car. Neither of those places were particularly sleazy, just weird and amusing.

Strizzo wrote: would have been interesting if they had actually gotten it sold... what happens when someones new-to-them car ends up having been stolen by the dealer?

wonder how that would have worked with no title ..??

I have noted on many occasions in my day job that you should never get involved in transaction if possible where the other person is a known crook because that person spends all their waking hours figuring out the next way to screw you and most of us dont live our lives that way.

unless you are a cop.....

Bobzilla wrote: That goes for ordering coffee to having a house built. I mean, you don;t go to a house builder and say "Build me that house" then get mad when it costs way more than you though it should. Of course not.

To put this in perspective though what would you say if the builder added a garage and a basement without your knowledge then billed you for them

aussiesmg wrote:

Bobzilla wrote: That goes for ordering coffee to having a house built. I mean, you don;t go to a house builder and say "Build me that house" then get mad when it costs way more than you though it should. Of course not.

To put this in perspective though what would you say if the builder added a garage and a basement without your knowledge then billed you for them

I thought every house had a garage and basement.

I'd be pissed if the built my house and forgot those items.

See, it works both ways.

Shawn

Ah yes the virtues of a car dealer, the only one lower is a real estate agent. I had one once claim that he lost my keys. During a test drive I only give him the car keys. No problem; reached into my pocket and produced 3 more copies. Told the dealer that if he couldn't find my keys, what kind of service did they have, unlocked the car and drove off.

The chicken is coming.