Dear Sirs: I require enlightment with regards to the Mazda 323 GTX

I've found a semi-local 323 GTX. It's a non-runner (head is off of the motor and apparently has been for quite a while). I know they use the same B6T as the Capri and 323GT, but I was curious about 1) their propensity to rust and 2) the existence of rare and/or unobtainable parts (seem to remember that the transmission and transfer cases are full of parts that are NLA or at least super-expensive).

So, what's the haps? I know these things are awesome. I'm assuming that this one will probaby require a new head at the very least, and quite possibly an engine...but that's not hard to find or expensive, and I'm assuming the rest of the drivetrain would at least be good enough to move the car. If I'm wrong, just how expensive is it to rebuild the trans? Will a JDM unit work? Can I find them?

The ad says "very little rust", but it's a standard CL ad with only four pictures. FWIW, the car looks pretty clean and well-taken care of. No exterior rust, nice aftermarket mags,clean interior, etc., etc. Are there any places underneath where they like to rot?

I had a little chat with a 323GTX guy about a year back at a local rallycross.

From what I gathered from him, it seemed the hot ticket was junking the stock drivetrain and gettting Toyota AllTrac parts under there. (yeah, I'm not sure how that works, either, honestly) Made it sound like the drivetrain was fine for a stock motor, but turn the wick up and you'd break it quickly.

He may have been trying to blow smoke up my ass about my Camry, though, so take that as you will.

I once heard it explained that they are a reliable car, but not a durable car :) Yes, they rust. Not exceptionally badly by the standards of 1988 econoboxes, but they're all 20 years old now.

The engine is basically the Miata unit. In fact, I'd recommend a Miata bottom end because of the higher compression. The stock 7.8:1 (I think) compression is ridiculously low. Great for homologation, terrible for street use. They had a tendency to burn valves IIRC. I bought my first one with trashed valves and simply a dropped Miata head on it.

Yeah, the transmission is the weak point, and they're starting to get a bit scarce. Remember that only about 1500 were brought into the US, and the rally types have trashed quite a few parts :) It's pretty easy to make more power out of one, and thus pretty easy to find yourself in need of a new transmission. If you find one with a bad trans, I'd get a BPT engine and transmission off eBay. The 1.8 transmission is stronger and you'll get more power out of the deal as well. I don't know if anyone's managed the Camry swap.

But rust. Check the gas tank (which is NLA). Check by the rear wheels. I have to say that both of mine were desert Colorado cars and amazingly rust free (like everything around here) so I don't have personal experience as to where they go. But I do know those rear arches are prone.

So what your saying is,

They are reliable in that they are almost always going to be breaking transmissions or engines?

"My DSM is reliable, it needs a new tranny every week!"

They're not that hard on engines, really. Certainly not in stock form. If the boost is turned up with crude methods, they'll pop. Like anything. Transmissions are going to require a bit of a gentler hand, but I never had trouble with mine. Never went drag racing with it either, I'm sure there's no connection.

Keith wrote: I don't know if anyone's managed the Camry swap.

Considering how rare the Camry AllTrac is, I would assume most swaps come from Celicas.

I had one for 5 years and I learned a lot. It's pretty easy to get to 180hp or so safely with minor bolt ons and a boost increase, beyond that and you may loose some longevity. Mike Welch at Road Race engineering was the guru on the GTX at the time and he told me if I ever tried to spin the tires on a launch at the autocross, I'd break the transmission before the tires broke loose. I took his advice and was always careful and it never gave me any problems at 180hp or so. Some of the GTX parts are scarce for sure. My carrier bearing on my driveshaft broke and I had to source a replacement driveshaft from across the country. The bearing itself came from Japan. Drove it around as a FWD with the diff locked for weeks until the parts came in. Gas tank has a split sump (for driveshaft) with a crossover pump that sometimes doesn't work. Exh manifolds crack, etc. But overall, it's a fun car and I find myself still missing mine! Still it's not a Camry and it will require some work here and there to be sure. Come to think of it, I never ever went anywhere without my toolbox in the trunk. Just in case.

ReverendDexter wrote:

Keith wrote: I don't know if anyone's managed the Camry swap.

Considering how rare the Camry AllTrac is, I would assume most swaps come from Celicas.

Especially considering the trans in the Camry AllTrac is built for the screaming power of a 3sfe. All 115hp or so of it.

sport compact car had a project 323 GTX for a while.

good luck finding back issues. any google links I find to the SCC site takes me to modified mag now.

There's actually a Camry Alltrac for sale about 2miles from here. Hmm.

Like every one else has said rust and transmissions.

The syncro's are the first to go, but if you gentle they'll last a long time like that. When I had mine the tank was rusted all round the seam. I was about to convert to a cell when I found a recon tank for $250 and snapped that up. There is a very loyal following out there, I'm sure the Yahoo group still exists in some form or other. They were more common in other parts of the world so spares are available but you may have to pay to import parts.

Having been rallied so extensively every part of the car is well known. Aftermarket parts are hard to find and there's no such thing as off the shelf suspension parts anymore, but the knowledge of how to use and modify parts from other vehicles is out there.

A couple of years ago, there was a stash of KYBs available for the cars. With a bit of work, I put a set of Protege5 struts under mine. They worked really well actually.

Clay wrote: Come to think of it, I never ever went anywhere without my toolbox in the trunk. Just in case.

Ah heck...I can say that about anything I drive ;).

Psteav...call me if/when you go to look at this. If I'm available, I'd like to come along if you'll have me. Sounds like a good one to see.

Clem

323GTX is a fun fun car and can be made to handle really well. Yes the gearbox is kinda weak, but the engine, except for the ex. manifold, is practically bulletproof, and a cracked ex. manny isn't the end of the world. Upgrading to that BPT engine/trans is a hot ticket to a reliable 220-240 whp in a light sleeper hatchback... These days, the more stock the better the buy. Where is the car located? If it's been living on the east coast or anywhere else that they salt the roads rust will be an issue but that's gonna be the case with anything. The other weak part of the car not yet mentioned is the berkleying piece of e36m3 wheelbearings. They might do well on a skateboard, but not so much on a car. If the ones on this car have worn out the hubs, that's an issue... According to Mazda Comp, I bought the last set of hubs available in the country about 5 years ago. If they're just worn out, they can be replaced but ignore the torque settings in the service manual. See the yahoogroups 323gtx list for more vital info on this and lots of other topics.

As far as making the gearbox live, I have a list of things to do: Don't dump the clutch. Drain the lube out of the trans and centerdiff, and replace it with a good synthetic 75w90 gearlube, better yet a mix of that and say redline heavy shockproof. Mazda says to use ATF. Bah. Me, I use torco 85w140 in my mazdog awd gearboxes. Change the lube frequently. Shift with care. And whenever you get around to changing the clutch, install a light flywheel. Stay away from an unsprung disc, and stay away from a puck clutch. Don't lock the centerdiff unless you're on snow. As for that Toyota tranny swap, well, it's been done overseas, but so far as I can tell it's been done only to the next-gen GTX, the one that never made it to the US, the BG chassis. You'll have halfshaft compatibility issues with the '88 323. My rally 4wd protege is currently undergoing the swap, but it has the correct 323 GTR hubs that will work with the toyota alltrac halfshafts. If and when the conversion is done, it might be the only mazda with a toyota trans in it in the states thus far...

Jay_W wrote: 323GTX is a fun fun car and can be made to handle really well. Yes the gearbox is kinda weak, but the engine, except for the ex. manifold, is practically bulletproof, and a cracked ex. manny isn't the end of the world. Upgrading to that BPT engine/trans is a hot ticket to a reliable 220-240 whp in a light sleeper hatchback... These days, the more stock the better the buy. Where is the car located? If it's been living on the east coast or anywhere else that they salt the roads rust will be an issue but that's gonna be the case with anything. The other weak part of the car not yet mentioned is the berkleying piece of e36m3 wheelbearings. They might do well on a skateboard, but not so much on a car. If the ones on this car have worn out the hubs, that's an issue... According to Mazda Comp, I bought the last set of hubs available in the country about 5 years ago. If they're just worn out, they can be replaced but ignore the torque settings in the service manual. See the yahoogroups 323gtx list for more vital info on this and lots of other topics. As far as making the gearbox live, I have a list of things to do: Don't dump the clutch. Drain the lube out of the trans and centerdiff, and replace it with a good synthetic 75w90 gearlube, better yet a mix of that and say redline heavy shockproof. Mazda says to use ATF. Bah. Me, I use torco 85w140 in my mazdog awd gearboxes. Change the lube frequently. Shift with care. And whenever you get around to changing the clutch, install a light flywheel. Stay away from an unsprung disc, and stay away from a puck clutch. Don't lock the centerdiff unless you're on snow. As for that Toyota tranny swap, well, it's been done overseas, but so far as I can tell it's been done only to the next-gen GTX, the one that never made it to the US, the BG chassis. You'll have halfshaft compatibility issues with the '88 323. My rally 4wd protege is currently undergoing the swap, but it has the correct 323 GTR hubs that will work with the toyota alltrac halfshafts. If and when the conversion is done, it might be the only mazda with a toyota trans in it in the states thus far...

You gotta beat John Riel.

Per Schroeder wrote: There's actually a Camry Alltrac for sale about 2miles from here. Hmm.

New project car? Is it a sedan or wagon?

They're hilarious with the Celica alltrac drivetrain in them.

I think they were just NA... they didn't get the celica alltrac drivetrain. just AWD.

93celicaGT2 wrote: You gotta beat John Riel.

Tim Taylor might beat both of us, as I seem to be buying his extra adaptor plate. 'Sides, John's conversion is only fwd so it ain't quite as ambitious....

andrave wrote: I think they were just NA... they didn't get the celica alltrac drivetrain. just AWD.

Yes. They were just N/A. Got the 3sfe. Gutless, with relatively fragile drivetrains. At least, compared to the Celica alltrac.

Jay_W wrote:

93celicaGT2 wrote: You gotta beat John Riel.

Tim Taylor might beat both of us, as I seem to be buying his extra adaptor plate. 'Sides, John's conversion is only fwd so it ain't quite as ambitious....

I'm waiting to see what John comes up with.... I have a spare Toyota S54 transmission out of a 94-99 celica GT that mounts up the same as the E153 that he's using. I'd like to do the conversion, because as far as i've seen thus far, the stock EGT transmissions are trash. I DO enjoy the gearing, though. Too bad they're so fragile.

All the reliability of an AWD DSM with the power of a Mazda and the rust of an 80s Jap car.

Save yourself the headache and just get a DSM. If you gotta have the small hatch, you can AWD swap a Colt using off-the-shelf DSM parts. If you gotta have the unique, you can get a Galant VR4 or a nice first gen, both are rare these days.

Everyone hates DSMs for the same reason they hate 5.0 Mustangs. In the end, they are the best solution to what you want to do, but people can't always come to terms with the fact that a car that is so hated is so superior in every way.

"All the reliability of an AWD DSM with the power of a Mazda and the rust of an 80s Jap car" Sad but true. Tough to get lotsa power outta that B6T motor. BPT otoh, well...

"Save yourself the headache and just get a DSM."

.... but why do they have to be so damn heavy? It's the lack of heft compared to say a vr4 that makes the gtx so fun.

93gsxturbo wrote: All the reliability of an AWD DSM with the power of a Mazda and the rust of an 80s Jap car. Save yourself the headache and just get a DSM. If you gotta have the small hatch, you can AWD swap a Colt using off-the-shelf DSM parts. If you gotta have the unique, you can get a Galant VR4 or a nice first gen, both are rare these days. Everyone hates DSMs for the same reason they hate 5.0 Mustangs. In the end, they are the best solution to what you want to do, but people can't always come to terms with the fact that a car that is so hated is so superior in every way.

Except for reliability, as you seem to have pointed out in your own post.... Rust is rust. Any older japanese car is going to do it. Drivetrain... well... yeah. Hence the talk of a Toyota conversion. I haven't heard of Celica AllTracs breaking axles or transmissions recently, so there's that.

Power? They'll make PLENTY of power for the smaller, lighter chassis.

It's just different. It's not an inferior car to a DSM. It's just different.

The GTX is actually a really nice car to drive. It's got that long-travel solid rally feel to it and the steering is pretty good. Imagining that it came from the same company that gave us the Miata a year or two later is not a stretch. I actually loved the size of it, it was perfect for my needs.

But they're an old, low-production car that's had many of the spare parts wadded up into balls in the woods. I think that's why you see so many of them changing hands, they're a bit of work to live with.

93celicaGT2 wrote:

andrave wrote: I think they were just NA... they didn't get the celica alltrac drivetrain. just AWD.

Yes. They were just N/A. Got the 3sfe. Gutless, with relatively fragile drivetrains. At least, compared to the Celica alltrac.

No, it has the exact same transaxlefercase and rear end that was put in the Celicas. The only thing that's different is the front half-shafts, where they use the regular 4-cylinder Camry units.