Dilemma: New engine or new car?

I've been pondering what my long term goal ought to be with the Civic (Edited to add: It's a more or less stock '95 Civic EX.). What looked like a reasonably low mileage daily driver turned out to have been put together from a couple different cars, and it's had a couple issues. So I was thinking of selling it and buying something else; I'd probably look to spend around $4,000 to $6,000 plus whatever I can sell the Civic for, and that should pay for a pretty decent everyday car.

But today I've started wondering what that kind of money would do if poured into the Civic. It does have a good interior and a rust-free, mostly straight body, so a new drivetrain could do away with reliability worries, right? So I've been pondering one of these two approaches. I'd want a reliable and torquey motor, something practical for street use. Not too sure I'd like to deal with some kind of screaming 1.6 liter 200 hp all motor B16 on a day to day basis. And it has to keep air conditioning in it.

1. Get a spare D16 (see the "disposable engines" thread) and rebuild it to make a purpose built turbo motor using some low buck tricks like the Vitara piston mod, maybe some head porting, a nice small turbo, then swap it in. I'm a little concerned about reliability - even if I build a bulletproof motor, I'm somewhat worried about grenading the drivetrain.

2. Swap in an H22A. My biggest concern here is that this isn't exactly a cheap swap, particularly if I decide I don't have the time to do it myself and have a shop do this. I don't 100% trust those "low mileage JDM engines" (have seen a couple horror stories with these firsthand) and would almost certainly want to give the motor an overhaul before putting it in.

Any thoughts from the GRM board?

What year Civic are we talking about here?

It's a '95 Civic EX coupe.

Is this the primary driver or do you have another car to drive while this one's down?

If you have another car to drive while this one is down then I'd say go for it.

What are you thinking as a replacement if you sell it?

b series. The h series swap is more involved and not exactly worth the extra effort powerwise.

I have friends with both k-series, and h-series swaps still ironing out all the little issues, where as B-series swaps are a bit more 'plug and play'.

have you considered a 99-00 Si?

jwdmotorsports wrote: have you considered a 99-00 Si?

As an Si owner, I can say it's not worth the paranoia of ownership as a daily driver. To this day, they're still getting stolen/stripped at an alarming rate. Owning one without being able to garage it is just plain nuts.

H22A swap sounds great on paper, but after you calculate all the parts needed to do it, it's a pricey endeavor--assuming you can find a legit/decent engine.

LS is a good idea. Otherwise, a freshened/lightly built d16z6 makes the most sense.

My 95 EG hatch is starting to develop so many small issues it's getting to the "berkeley it" point. Then again, the chassis will turn 300k in another couple of months. (150k on the d16z6 swap)

BTW--a stock b16a is plenty of fun.

Premium fuel might be a PITA when/if gas prices skyrocket again.

MadScientistMatt wrote: What looked like a reasonably low mileage daily driver turned out to have been put together from a couple different cars Any thoughts from the GRM board?

Don't walk away from this car -- run.

Thanks to all who responded. "Pieced together out of several cars" may be something of an exaggeration, though I'm not sure just how much. To answer the questions raised so far...

jwdmotorsports wrote: Is this the primary driver or do you have another car to drive while this one's down? If you have another car to drive while this one is down then I'd say go for it.

That's part of the reason I've been uncertain - while I do have other vehicles available, the only one that's reasonably dependable is my Suzuki sportbike.

What are you thinking as a replacement if you sell it?

That would be another thread entirely.

jwdmotorsports wrote: have you considered a 99-00 Si?

Yes. Among many other things.

slowcamaro wrote: b series. The h series swap is more involved and not exactly worth the extra effort powerwise. I have friends with both k-series, and h-series swaps still ironing out all the little issues, where as B-series swaps are a bit more 'plug and play'.

The H22 swap does look like a bit more work, and I've estimated it could set me back $4,000 or so to do it right. While I do happen to have $4,000 sitting in my Next Car Fund account, I'm not sure that's the best use of that fund. Main reason I wanted an H22 was for the torque - a B16 doesn't seem to pull much harder than a D16 until you really rev it up. The torque curve in a larger motor seems a bit handier to have at low RPM, stop and go driving.

JohnW wrote:

MadScientistMatt wrote: What looked like a reasonably low mileage daily driver turned out to have been put together from a couple different cars Any thoughts from the GRM board?

Don't walk away from this car -- run.

To clear up what I meant by that - it looks like the car was hit in the front end, had some sheet metal replaced ahead of the front wheels - and the idiot fixing it accidentally put disc brakes on one side that were an inch smaller than the brakes on the other side. It appears that from the mid front fenders back the car is pretty solid, but that might still be a good plan...

JohnW wrote:

MadScientistMatt wrote: What looked like a reasonably low mileage daily driver turned out to have been put together from a couple different cars Any thoughts from the GRM board?

Don't walk away from this car -- run.

Or because it has bad resale squeeze it dry. Use it until it cant be used anymore.

Hmmm......I've ridden a motorcycle as my primary transportation before. I would never do it again if I could help it.

The words low budget tricks, turbo and daily driver dont ususally belong in the same sentance. lol Is something wrong with the engine and theats why you are worried about it? Or are the problems other things. I dont think a engine swapped car is a great choise for your only car.

Travis_K wrote: The words low budget tricks, turbo and daily driver dont ususally belong in the same sentance. lol

I know... although there's a difference between some clever part swaps and bad cost cutting. For example, I wouldn't think of using eBay turbo headers, but swapping in Vitara pistons for less compression is definitely an option.

Is something wrong with the engine and theats why you are worried about it? Or are the problems other things. I dont think a engine swapped car is a great choise for your only car.

It has good compression, but it leaks oil (admittedly that may just be a valve cover gasket; I've been meaning to put some silicone there and see if that fixes it) and has just been plagued with weird gremlins, mostly of the engine electrical variety.

D motors love compression. For a daily driver build, I'd throw some 89 Integra pistons in there, which should net you somewhere in the 11-12:1 range (I'm not sure with the VTEC head), open up the intake and exhaust (AEM CAI and DC Header) and spend some time tuning it. It won't be a monster, but it would be a bit more stout and factory reliable, though now requiring premium fuel.

DILYSI Dave wrote: D motors love compression. For a daily driver build, I'd throw some 89 Integra pistons in there, which should net you somewhere in the 11-12:1 range (I'm not sure with the VTEC head), open up the intake and exhaust (AEM CAI and DC Header) and spend some time tuning it. It won't be a monster, but it would be a bit more stout and factory reliable, though now requiring premium fuel.

That's probably a bit more sane than anything else I've considered that involved keeping the car. Thanks for the suggestion; if I hang on to the Civic, something simple like that would probably be my best choice.

B18C1 swap. You can debate what engine MIGHT be better than this one; but what you get is a plug-and-play swap that cranks out 170 hp and doesn't have to spin to the expensive side of 8000 RPM to do it, or require non-US parts to work at all (ask anyone else with a ZC swap about the intermediate shaft).

It bolts directly in with stock parts. It doesn't require fiddling with engine computer controls, it doesn't require hacking up the harness too heavily. It's almost like it was designed to go in there. You'll end up at 24-2500 lbs and 170 hp.

You sound like you don't really want to screw around all that much, so don't.

gamby wrote:

jwdmotorsports wrote: have you considered a 99-00 Si?

As an Si owner, I can say it's not worth the paranoia of ownership as a daily driver. To this day, they're still getting stolen/stripped at an alarming rate. Owning one without being able to garage it is just plain nuts.

I have a 96 EK hatch, Less desirable than the 99-00 Si but still desirable in the Civic world, and It has been broken into 6-7 times in 4 years.. I forget how many its been so many ijn fact. I have had to replace 2 butchered doors, a drivers and a passengers glass, the bezel and some stuff once, and steering column stuff once. I love the car, but it really is a PITA from justifiable parinoia standpoint. Sometimes I stay up late with just a computer so it looks like the house is asleep, and on a couple occasions I have watched as "slammed" cars sit and case my car. It really is a stupid crime riddled car scene. That said, I picked up a good used d16y5 and tranny for 50 bucks off a guy who swapped in a b16. (people think the HX motors are worthless).

Why not just fix the oil leaks? My 180k mile d16a6 leaked oil. I pulled the valve cover off, cleaned everything up, took the oppertunity to paint the VC black, and did a decent job RTVing the stock gaskets. Just took it for a 300 mile trip and no sign of oil seepage.

Later on the road I plan to put in a B16A and then source a CRV b20b block. This block will get built while I drive the stock B16. When the block is ready to go in, it should have everything it needs to be a good daily driven b20vtec setup. There are some great threads on honda-tech about stock sleeve B20 setups. 200 whp is not asking too much from what I have seen.

200 whp in a 2300 lb fwd car with the b16 gear ratios is... well... fast.

http://www.honda-tech.com/showthread.php?t=1555476

http://www.honda-tech.com/showthread.php?t=2277671

http://www.honda-tech.com/showpost.php?p=34015413&postcount=31

http://www.honda-tech.com/showthread.php?t=2186028

I'm going to RTV the valve cover gasket soon enough - I suspect that's the problem, just had a bunch of other annoying things happening at once (wife's DD needs some major repairs, for example). It's just the motor seems to be annoying me in a bunch of little ways instead of being a major issue, and I'm trying to decide on long term plans for the car.

$.02 - Don't RTV the gasket. Replacements are cheap enough to just do it right.

I replaced that gasket last year - it had blown a head gasket after blowing the radiator (or maybe it was the other way around). Not sure if I didn't get that gasket on correctly or what. Are Honda valve cover gaskets supposed to have RTV applied to them or not? I didn't use any RTV when I installed it.

I usually hate doing things like RTVing the gasket... but it was what I had at the time. Instead of putting a glob on it, I like to apply a little to my finger and paint it on so to speak. Seems to work great.

Pick up some Honda Bond if you've never used it before. That E36 M3 is balllleeeeerrrrr.

Don't the natural gas Civic pistons give a pretty high compression as well?

Taiden wrote: Why not just fix the oil leaks? My 180k mile d16a6 leaked oil. I pulled the valve cover off, cleaned everything up, took the oppertunity to paint the VC black, and did a decent job RTVing the stock gaskets. Just took it for a 300 mile trip and no sign of oil seepage. Later on the road I plan to put in a B16A and then source a CRV b20b block. This block will get built while I drive the stock B16. When the block is ready to go in, it should have everything it needs to be a good daily driven b20vtec setup. There are some great threads on honda-tech about stock sleeve B20 setups. 200 whp is not asking too much from what I have seen. 200 whp in a 2300 lb fwd car with the b16 gear ratios is... well... fast. http://www.honda-tech.com/showthread.php?t=1555476 http://www.honda-tech.com/showthread.php?t=2277671 http://www.honda-tech.com/showpost.php?p=34015413&postcount=31 http://www.honda-tech.com/showthread.php?t=2186028

Until it blows up from a bad "Squish" area....