Do I want to upgrade my Megasquirt?

I got an email from our friends at DIY Auto Tune offering a black friday discount.  This has prompted me to ponder an upgrade... 

I am running MS1 with MSnSe code and am pretty satisfied with it controlling fuel and spark on my turbo Datsun.  I have a couple of extra outputs hooked up, one for a fan controller that doesn't quite work right, and another ready for methanol injection.  And I have welded the distributor so I can use the VR sensor for input.  Otherwise, the setup is pretty vanilla.

Looks like MS3 will cost an extra $100 over MS2, plus I have to buy a new case.  And I'm pretty sure MS3 is total overkill for me.  Do I want MS2?

MS2 is a big upgrade.  BUT if it is not broken I would be hard pressed to mess with it.

dean1484 said:

MS2 is a big upgrade.  BUT if it is not broken I would be hard pressed to mess with it.

This x1000 unless the car is only for tinkering.

The ability to add sequential injection, launch control, CAN communication and faster serial communication can be helpful if you want to find a few more ponies under the curve or add features to help you as a driver (easier dashboard displays, etc.)

In reply to Stefan : 

What  if  you want to do stuff to an engine that normally doesn’t have stuff done to it?  Example a Jaguar V12 with turbos and running on E85?  

Is there someplace or somebody who can get you started and walk you through what is needed?  Or are you on your own to figure everything out?   

An engine is an engine, for the most part.

Read the MegaSquirt manual and the manual for TunerStudio and you’ll get a good baseline for understanding how the MegaSquirt and TunerStudio works.

From there it’s basic EFI tuning, which there is lots of books and training and videos.

I can't help you from 2 to 3, but I can tell you that you can have a smoother car going from 1 to 2.. 

I'm always impressed with how much better the idle control and smoother transitions between low and high rpm are.  The 2 feels much closer to OEM to me, but as was mentioned, if it ain't broke...

Only you can tell whether that's worth the cost of entry, of course.

In reply to WonkoTheSane :

I suspect that is the bigger tables in 2. 

I ran MS2 in The Lethal Locost with Alpha-N for a number of years.  I had MS1 fall into my lap, and I needed the idle air control (that I wasn't using) for The Crusty Chevy, so I downgraded the Locost to MS1.

It -did- run slightly smoother and more refined on MS2, but it was perfectly fine on either. For a bare bones install, MS1 is perfectly fine. I don't feel it was "a loss," it was just different.

dean1484 said:

In reply to WonkoTheSane :

I suspect that is the bigger tables in 2. 

I suspect that as well..

In reply to Stefan :

So no?  While I have decades of experience building and racing engines, my knowledge and experience predates modern computer systems.  

I still haven’t figured out how to post pictures etc. while I can have my daughter or granddaughter walk me through the process, once done I don’t understand what I did. 

That and the number of bargain  Jaguars I’m offered because others ( including dealerships) can’t be bothered to figure it out either convinces me many others are in the same boat. 

My MS2 has 12x12 tables, but spark and AFRs can both be +/-0.1

My MS1-Extra runs 12x12 tables (without Extra I think it's 8x8), but AFRs can be +/- 0.1, while spark can be +/1°

Wow, I expected to hear it was lightyears better.  Running smoother would be nice, but in reality it drives fine as-is.  I am leaning towards "no" on this upgrade, guess I'll sleep on it.  Thanks1

In reply to mikeatrpi :

Whether it's a significant upgrade will depend on how sensitive your engine is to tuning AND how many features you want.

Running fuel-only on a fairly insensitive engine, basically a carburetor replacement with zero bells or whistles, I couldn't really detect any difference between MS1-Basic and MS2/Extra.  And probably by the time I do incorporate ignition and various other controls, I'll just step over to a Microsquirt for its better crank sensor hardware. 

frenchyd said:

In reply to Stefan :

So no?  While I have decades of experience building and racing engines, my knowledge and experience predates modern computer systems.  

I still haven’t figured out how to post pictures etc. while I can have my daughter or granddaughter walk me through the process, once done I don’t understand what I did. 

That and the number of bargain  Jaguars I’m offered because others ( including dealerships) can’t be bothered to figure it out either convinces me many others are in the same boat. 

 

I'm not sure what you're asking?

You have knowledge of the engine and its inner workings along with knowledge on how to tune them to produce more horsepower/improve reliability.

To convert to MegaSquirt from carburetors is merely replacing the carburetor with a series of fuel injectors that are controlled by the MegaSquirt controller.  You have to come up with the necessary sensors, fuel rail, injectors, throttle body, etc.

If your engine was already available with factory electronic fuel injection as an option, then converting is a bit more easy since most of the hard parts can be re-used, including the injectors, fuel system, sensors and in some cases, even the wiring.

The tuning theory is the same, except you have finite control over the amount of time the injector should be open to provide fuel rather than how large the opening in the fuel jet is.

When tuning, you use a laptop with TunerStudio running on it and connected to the MegaSquirt and you read the oxygen sensor output and adjust the fuel levels on a graphical interface until you get the desired results in the oxygen sensor output.  There's even an "auto tune" option that will adjust fuel to the desired A/F ratio.  This desired ratio can be set to what you want depending on your knowledge of the engine's fuel requirements (for example: turbocharged engines typically run a bit more rich to help prevent knock) or the type of fuel you use.

As to being unable to post pictures, that's actually more complex than configuring or tuning a MegaSquirt system, since there are so many more variables involved with pictures on the internet.

This video might help with MegaSquirt:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H2ymWVJq7yI

There's also videos of Jaguar V12's running on YouTube and some documentation:

http://www.msruns.com/viewtopic.php?f=92&t=20086

Here's some info on setting up MegaSquirt to run dual Ford EDIS distributorless ignition systems on the Jaguar V12:

http://www.jaguardiy.net/html/dual_edis_ignition.html

In reply to Stefan :Hey thank you!  That is going to help me I’m sure.  I’ll spend some time and see if I can figure it out on my own.  At nearly 70 I’m not as mentally agile as I was in my youth but I hope I can still learn.  

Upon further research Holley has a sale on that will sell me a 950 CFM double pumper set up for a supercharger that’s a bolt on and go. It will cost only $431. With free shipping. 

It should be jetted close enough to run and I do have a complete set of drills & reams  so I’m still in my comfort area.

 I know there is real potential power in a modern EFI  maybe more than 100 horsepower more.  Heck the stock Jaguar uses 1200 CFM on it’s fuel injection system  so how much bigger can I go with a big blower sitting on top?  

In reply to mikeatrpi :

This list might help show where MS2 gains over MS1, let alone MS3:

http://www.msextra.com/feature-xref.html

Basically, MS2 has a faster processor so it can handle more calculations, faster Serial for better data logging/management, CAN communications for CAN-based gauges or other devices that communicate via CAN-BUS, it supports a stepper motor style idle motor, 16x16 tuning cells, .1 degree advance resolution, semi-sequential fueling for 4-cylinders, and many other options.

For $100, its worth it to me to go from MS1 to MS2.

MS3 would be great if you had a more complex build or had a need for its capabilities, but for most they don't need it.  It is nice that it has a built-in SD card slot for data logging without a laptop, but I can't imagine its worth $200 or so to upgrade in your situation.

Is MS2 any better at noise suppression?  I've battled that on MS1, fiddling with grounds and even installing some capacitors on the board.  Its better, but not perfect.  

In reply to frenchyd :

The thing about MS is that it is as close to a one size fits all ECU as you can get.  This is great and also can be a problem. Since you have the understanding of motors and How fueling of them and How spark and timing work you are light years ahead. What I would do is start by determining how you are going to fuel your motor. You will need to calculate the motors fuel usage. You then need to sort out how you are going to inject the fuel. Central injection versus multi port. There are reasons for either. You have to read and see what is best for you.  No matter what you do one of the biggest things you need to be aware of is the impedance of the injectors you end up with  

Spark is where people tend to get intimidated.  There are many choices. No wrong answer here either.  My suggestion is to stick with a mainstream mfgr. The ford EDIS system is where I started because it is so simple. No it is not a coil on plug that people will say is better.  To me EDIS and COP ignition systems are like comparing MS2 and MS3.  Now that I said all that I am not sure how you would make EDIS work on a V12. My first thought is to use two EDIS6 units and two 6 Coil packs or you may use a single EDIS 6 unit that would control two 6cylinder coils.  Thinking more about it this is probably the way I would do it as I am not sure how the MS would deal with two PIP and SAW wires from two EDIS units .  I guess you could use only one input from a single EDIS unit and then send the out put back to both EDIS units  kind of making one EDIS unit a master and the second a slave.   I would have to reasurch this more but this kind of problem is what makes MS fun . 

Once you get a basic plan start looking at what it takes to make them work.  Since you are talking boost a MAP based system (manifold pressure) is what I would recommend. I would also consider Wide band O2 mandatory in your case you may consider one for each bank. Not necessary but another thing for you to consider. 

The last thing you need to figuare out is crank and cam sensors and or using the existing distributor with some mods to provide you with a cam signal. The short of it is if you go with a spark (like EDIS) you probably don’t need a a cam sensor. 

The last bit is t set up your other sensors that include water temp and an IAT (intake air temp). 

Another optional sensor is a TPS  

The rest is wiring and tuning. The auto tune function is a great help. 

Now my advise:  Keep it as simple as possible to get it up and running as fast as possible.   People will argue that COP is better than EDIS and it probibly is but 99.9 percent of people don’t need it.  But for some reason you will have everyone telling you that you should go COP.   A EDIS system is just fine and you only have to deal with two wires back to the MS unit.  Same goes for full sequential injection.  Batch fire works just fine for just about everyone.  People get up on there internet soap box and will tell you that you really need to have a COP ignition with sequential injection.  You don’t.  You need the simplest easiest system that gets you up and running reliably. 

With your project being a V12 a lot of the choices may be made for you if you went with a MS2  where as a MS3 may open up more options due to it being a more powerful and capable unit.   

My last bit of advise is don’t be affrade to change things up mid plan.  I will almost guarantee that you will change something as the project progresses.  COP may be better due to packaging issues or the type of injection may change due to the impedance of the injectors you have to use.  Just roll with it. 

mikeatrpi said:

Is MS2 any better at noise suppression?  I've battled that on MS1, fiddling with grounds and even installing some capacitors on the board.  Its better, but not perfect.  

I never had noise problems with MS1, grounding absolutely everything to the same bolt on the engine block.

The new paradigm is grounding everything directly to the battery.  This would require about 100 extra feet of wire in my installation, so I won't do it, because what is already there has worked well enough for me so far.  Given the sort of grounding theories I have seen other people have with the MS installs I have debugged, telling people to just ground everything at the battery is a wise move.  (No, you can't just ground everything at whatever is the closest and most convenient location to where the wire ends.  Also, a zip screw to a painted rollcage bar doesn't count as a good ground)

On my Porsche factory wiring harness it is all grounded back to the battery. I usually add a ground strap or cable from the battery to the block due to some sensors grounding to/through the block. Simple to test and if it helps you can then make it permanent

In reply to dean1484 :Thank you that  was really helpful.  I’m starting to feel like it’s something I can do( not there yet but at least I’m heading that way

I do have the advantage that the last V12s  1992-1996 do have eids crank fired  ignition plus all the other parts of a modern system.  I have a source for one if I do a trade for some of my better parts and am willing to pull it from his basement. 

I might need to go retro because the first fuel injection system ( all analog ) has the biggest injectors.   Unless I can source some bigger injectors someplace.  Guess I’ll have to do some more research.  

I assume they are the standard Bosch one? If so I am sure you can find replacements from a junk yard tgat would fit. When I dud the supercharged 944 I found I needed 35lb ones. Turned out ford super coupes or Mitsubishi gtv 3000 both had what I wanted. They ended up being low impedance but bot really an issue that can be addressed with the MS. High impedance are a little bit easier but really not a big deal. I have a chart someplace listing what injectors are in what cars. Lb per hour and injector style are are the important thing.

In reply to dean1484 :

a chart like that will help once I wrap my head around my needs.  I have a complete working Lucas system in the1984 XJS in my driveway.  Plus a new MS1 in the box but without instructions.   

I think I’ll get the stock system up and running, switch over to the MS1 then go to work on getting it running properly with the supercharger before I put it in the MGUAR.   It may be a much slower way to achieve my goal but at least  I’ll go from known and proven to the unknown so if I get lost I can back up and see where I went wrong  

Excellent to start with a good known running motor before going to ms. 

I would sell your MS1 to a challenge competitor and step up to a MS2 v3. I think with you wanting to use boost the bigger tables an having the MAP built in makes MS2 a much better starting point for your needs.