Does modern tech in cars keep us from crashing

In reply to Pete. (l33t FS) :

Yes and youd be liable. People believing doesnt always make it true.

I think we are going to see some interesting court cases about the liability  of things like autopilot. Didnt a tesla just cause a huge pile up by slamming on the brakes on the hwy. Im not saying Tesla is liable and the driver isnt, but it is different enough from most ADAS to be a different thing, and I think there are certain legal arguments that could be made, and I am following some of this stuff closely to see what comes of it.

I can't say I see more accidents locally compared to a few years ago, but I certainly see a lot more blatantly risky behavior and close calls.  Much of it seems to be from people either just not paying attention, or not caring and figuring someone else will avoid hitting them.  And around here, general incompetent (and often nervous) driving is everywhere.  Plus, being winter and with many people refusing to buy snow tires, there's a constant sight of cars with front end damage.  Usually crap like cheap Nissans too, it's rarely anything nice showing signs of being smacked into a few things in the snow. 

In reply to Opti :

The laws, IIRC, are already on the books.  The driver is responsible for the control of the vehicle.  If autopilot type stuff does something wrong, it is the driver's responsibility to be paying attention and correct it.

In reply to yupididit :

Yeah, but you seem to have your head screwed on regardless of the car you're driving. It's those who become accustom to modern driving aids switching to older vehicles with little to none of those aids and driving with the same attitude that is terrifying .

In reply to Opti :

I don't think majority of the drivers on the road are in cars that are newer than 2018. Back up camera and navigation have been around for more than 10 years but they aren't for preventing accidents while driving on the road. The camera's are for people who forgot how to park lol usually in parking lots and garages. But, on the road tools like super cruise, lane keeping assist and the one where it will stop for you in emergency situations are mostly prevalent in cars that are newer than 5 years old. Blind spot monitoring is a passive tool and doesn't distract at all. I believe majority of drivers are driving without those active nannies simply because they are still relatively new. I swear I read somewhere that the average cars on the road is about 12 years old. Which leave a lot of car older than 12 on the road. My 2015 Expedition Platinum is loaded with every feature and it only has the blind spot monitoring, everything else is on me. My wife's barely equipped 2019 Honda Accord has it all though.   

Also I blame YouTubes. I watch a ton of dashcam compilations. I believe its skewed my perception of how many accidents occur, and how. Those E36 M3ty drivers have always existed, we just never witnessed them being E36 M3ty unless we were directly involved .

In reply to Appleseed :

Where I live I get to see E36 M3ty drivers in all their glory. Most of them just do wild E36 M3 that no amount of technology could stop as long as they're behind the wheel. New cars and old. Though, 2nd and 3rd gen Prius drivers tend to be the most aggressive unannounced lane changing then slamming brakes motherberkeleyers in the DC metro area. And why is it when I put on my signal to change lanes the driver in the lane I'm going into who is well behind me decide to floor it so I cant slide into the space in front of them? I see so many accidents from that alone. 

yupididit said:

In reply to Appleseed :

Where I live I get to see E36 M3ty drivers in all their glory. Most of them just do wild E36 M3 that no amount of technology could stop as long as they're behind the wheel. New cars and old. Though, 2nd and 3rd gen Prius drivers tend to be the most aggressive unannounced lane changing then slamming brakes motherberkeleyers in the DC metro area. And why is it when I put on my signal to change lanes the driver in the lane I'm going into who is well behind me decide to floor it so I cant slide into the space in front of them? I see so many accidents from that alone. 

Around here it seems to be first and second generation CRVs and similar era civics that cause most of the issues. Pretty sure those don't have any of this tech. Isn't the average vehicle age something like 12 years now? I think that data is a bit skewed but I think it's safe to say that probably >50% of the vehicles out on the road right now have little to none of this stuff other than maybe a backup camera. And I don't care what anyone says, there isn't a vehicle in existence that isn't benefited at least slightly by a backup camera and probably blind spot monitoring as well. I recently got a vehicle with active cruise and you couldn't pay me to give it up. I don't think it's saved me from any crashes but the forced increased following distance is definitely a safety feature. And the convenience of it is just off the charts.

And yeah, the headlights are super integrated into everything. But they're also LED, so they're likely not ever going to need to be replaced.

Every time we try to idiot proof something, they just build a better idiot. 
 

It's possible/likely that the accident and death graphs should be on an upward trend and the driver's aids are helping keep them flat. I drive a lot. I've seen lots of "how did you manage to do THAT?" accidents. I've also seen plenty of times when cars have saved their hapless drivers. The most interesting one was where a car in front of me tried to change lanes into another car. The driver saw the car at the last minute, and way over reacted. She put the car into a tank slapper, and should have spun. Despite that fact that her inputs were only making it worse, the stability control straightened her out. The look on her face conveyed that he had no idea what just happened. 

In reply to ddavidv :

I had a Tesla of all vehicles back into my Elise once. Driver swore he couldn't have hit me since he saw no impact in the camera display. Seriously, dude? That's WHY you hit me. I sent a copy of the Tesla driver manual to his insurance that said "the reverse camera is not a substitute for capable driving".

Boost_Crazy said:

Every time we try to idiot proof something, they just build a better idiot. 
 

It's possible/likely that the accident and death graphs should be on an upward trend and the driver's aids are helping keep them flat. I drive a lot. I've seen lots of "how did you manage to do THAT?" accidents. I've also seen plenty of times when cars have saved their hapless drivers. The most interesting one was where a car in front of me tried to change lanes into another car. The driver saw the car at the last minute, and way over reacted. She put the car into a tank slapper, and should have spun. Despite that fact that her inputs were only making it worse, the stability control straightened her out. The look on her face conveyed that he had no idea what just happened. 

Total population is still growing and (I assume) so is the driving population. And on top of simple having more drivers, more divers on the same roads = more congestion = more opportunities for crashes. So yes, all else equal the crash rate should be going up, probably fairly substantially. Whether the actual rate is more or less than the theoretical, we can't really know. Accidents per capita would be an indicator but still not a complete picture.

Speaking for myself, I think these systems have actually made me a slightly better driver. In barely a month, active cruise has trained me to leave more following distance on the highway, which transferred over surprisingly well to non-active cruise vehicles.

Opti said:

Didnt a tesla just cause a huge pile up by slamming on the brakes on the hwy. Im not saying Tesla is liable and the driver isnt, but it is different enough from most ADAS to be a different thing, and I think there are certain legal arguments that could be made, and I am following some of this stuff closely to see what comes of it.

This on its own is an interesting discussion.  Slamming on your brakes shouldn't make you liable for someone else crashing.  If a deer jumps out in front of you, someone cuts you off, or something else initiates an emergency maneuver, you should slam on your brakes.  Its the job of everyone else behind you to react and hit their brakes properly.

I'd argue in the tesla scenario there are a berkeleyload of people at fault due to some combination of tailgating and inattentiveness.

Pete. (l33t FS) said:

In reply to Opti :

The laws, IIRC, are already on the books.  The driver is responsible for the control of the vehicle.  If autopilot type stuff does something wrong, it is the driver's responsibility to be paying attention and correct it.

I agree with you. Tesla is still currently being investigated/sued for false advertising around autopilot, phantom braking, and safety issues revolving around auto pilot.

There are a couple of unresolved cases about fatalities involving autopilot, one blamed tesla but didnt name them, the other actually names Tesla.

Im not saying it is Tesla's fault, but there are a couple of legal avenues that could be used to go after them, not saying they will succeed, just that they currently exist. These cases are interesting because they could set precedent to be used for years to come. I think it will be a few years until its all fought out in court and precedent is cemented. 

yupididit said:

In reply to Opti :

I don't think majority of the drivers on the road are in cars that are newer than 2018. Back up camera and navigation have been around for more than 10 years but they aren't for preventing accidents while driving on the road. The camera's are for people who forgot how to park lol usually in parking lots and garages. But, on the road tools like super cruise, lane keeping assist and the one where it will stop for you in emergency situations are mostly prevalent in cars that are newer than 5 years old. Blind spot monitoring is a passive tool and doesn't distract at all. I believe majority of drivers are driving without those active nannies simply because they are still relatively new. I swear I read somewhere that the average cars on the road is about 12 years old. Which leave a lot of car older than 12 on the road. My 2015 Expedition Platinum is loaded with every feature and it only has the blind spot monitoring, everything else is on me. My wife's barely equipped 2019 Honda Accord has it all though.   

Yah im not saying most people are in new cars. 

Im aware lane keep assist isnt a distraction, but people are relying on it instead of checking themselves and it allows them to pay less attention. Same with Navigation, you dont have to pay attention looking for your turn or exit, navigation will warn you right before you get there. Im not saying these things are distractions, Im saying they are allowing people to pay less attention while driving as they rely more and more on technology, and they just happen to be less aware and run into stuff.

As mentioned earlier people are relying on back up cameras and sensors instead of turning around and looking and running into stuff.

ProDarwin said:

Opti said:

Didnt a tesla just cause a huge pile up by slamming on the brakes on the hwy. Im not saying Tesla is liable and the driver isnt, but it is different enough from most ADAS to be a different thing, and I think there are certain legal arguments that could be made, and I am following some of this stuff closely to see what comes of it.

This on its own is an interesting discussion.  Slamming on your brakes shouldn't make you liable for someone else crashing.  If a deer jumps out in front of you, someone cuts you off, or something else initiates an emergency maneuver, you should slam on your brakes.  Its the job of everyone else behind you to react and hit their brakes properly.

I'd argue in the tesla scenario there are a berkeleyload of people at fault due to some combination of tailgating and inattentiveness.

I agree that it's not really the Tesla's fault.  But at the same time, unexpected hard braking on the highway with no apparent danger ahead is always likely to create a risky scenario.  Same problem with the people who tap their brakes to flash the lights "to warn the people behind them" and then brake hard rather than braking more gently for longer.  It doesn't necessarily produce a good reaction from people behind. 

rslifkin said:

ProDarwin said:

Opti said:

Didnt a tesla just cause a huge pile up by slamming on the brakes on the hwy. Im not saying Tesla is liable and the driver isnt, but it is different enough from most ADAS to be a different thing, and I think there are certain legal arguments that could be made, and I am following some of this stuff closely to see what comes of it.

This on its own is an interesting discussion.  Slamming on your brakes shouldn't make you liable for someone else crashing.  If a deer jumps out in front of you, someone cuts you off, or something else initiates an emergency maneuver, you should slam on your brakes.  Its the job of everyone else behind you to react and hit their brakes properly.

I'd argue in the tesla scenario there are a berkeleyload of people at fault due to some combination of tailgating and inattentiveness.

I agree that it's not really the Tesla's fault.  But at the same time, unexpected hard braking on the highway with no apparent danger ahead is always likely to create a risky scenario.  Same problem with the people who tap their brakes to flash the lights "to warn the people behind them" and then brake hard rather than braking more gently for longer.  It doesn't necessarily produce a good reaction from people behind. 

Right.  Not saying its acceptable behavior, but to assign Tesla fault also seems crazy to me.  Braking with the intent to cause an accident is obviously wrong.  But to try and hold someone (something) accountable for slamming on their brakes both creates an environment were people might be hesitant to do so (insane) and normalizes tailgating as acceptable.

yupididit said:

In reply to Appleseed :

Where I live I get to see E36 M3ty drivers in all their glory. Most of them just do wild E36 M3 that no amount of technology could stop as long as they're behind the wheel. New cars and old. Though, 2nd and 3rd gen Prius drivers tend to be the most aggressive unannounced lane changing then slamming brakes motherberkeleyers in the DC metro area. And why is it when I put on my signal to change lanes the driver in the lane I'm going into who is well behind me decide to floor it so I cant slide into the space in front of them? I see so many accidents from that alone. 

That's very accurate for VA and MD to the north of DC. Down here south of DC the most probable incident is being run off the road by a charger or Challenger going 100+mph swerving between traffic, usually in an area with a 55 mph speed limit.  No stopping them. They will also pass you on the shoulder, even in a construction zone.

ProDarwin said:

Right.  Not saying its acceptable behavior, but to assign Tesla fault also seems crazy to me.  Braking with the intent to cause an accident is obviously wrong.  But to try and hold someone (something) accountable for slamming on their brakes both creates an environment were people might be hesitant to do so (insane) and normalizes tailgating as acceptable.

AFAIK stopping on the freeway for no reason (which is effectively what the Tesla did) is a ticketable offense.

And from the video I watched, the people who piled into it (and each other) were not "tailgating".  Yes, they were "following too closely" by the standard of not leaving enough room between them and the car in front to come to a complete stop, but nobody does that.

I dunno what the legalities of it are, but having watched the video of the crash it appeared that everything was normal about the situation on the road other than the Tesla autopilot deciding to stop for no good reason.

In reply to codrus (Forum Supporter) :

I just checked out the video...

Tesla Bay Bridge Crash

I can't say I blame the initial car that hit him. He had a clear lane ahead, the Tesla moved in front of him and hit the brakes while he was boxed in. Such a move in much of the world means you are getting car jacked. The other cars though, they should have been able to stop. Being near the entrance to a tunnel going from light to dark I'm sure didn't help.

I see rampant red light running on a daily basis.  Not running a turning red light because they entered the intersection on yellow and it changed.

Red light running (RLR) when crossing traffic was already getting ready to move, or actually had been moving,  and the chaotic evil imbecile just runs it anyway.  I have seen two crashes in the last few months that happened just because of this behavior. I saw a guy legally crossing in a crosswalk, on his bicycle, almost get creamed by a RLR.   People are afraid to cross on a fresh green until they verify all the crossing traffic has actually stopped.  This holds up progress but its the safe decision.

Overall I think people take more chances because they know their superior modern tires, stability control,  and ABS can save them.  You can do things with modern radial  tires that would have resulted in a spin out or crash back in the bias tires drum brakes days. Especially in wet weather.

jharry3 said:

I see rampant red light running on a daily basis.  Not running a turning red light because they entered the intersection on yellow and it changed.

Red light running (RLR) when crossing traffic was already getting ready to move, or actually had been moving,  and the chaotic evil imbecile just runs it anyway.  I have seen two crashes in the last few months that happened just because of this behavior. I saw a guy legally crossing in a crosswalk, on his bicycle, almost get creamed by a RLR.   People are afraid to cross on a fresh green until they verify all the crossing traffic has actually stopped.  This holds up progress but its the safe decision.

Wait, you just blindly trust the crosswalk signals?  

My wife and I have been discussing this topic off and on.  MIL's new car has a backup camera and she basically never uses her mirrors while backing up now.  Also has a massive screen to make audio changes, HVAC, etc.  Tactile buttons are awesome, touch screens are not.  It also has a self-braking system "that works really well!"...

With that said, I think there is a definite attitude among drivers more now that they are obviously the most important person in the world.  Obviously not the same as what some of you experience, but our most recent trip back from FL after Christmas had a few fun episodes. 

Bumper to bumper 5mph traffic, a lady in a Tesla X almost running into the side of our E350 (giant white van) while trying to merge because she NEVER LOOKED BESIDE HER.  She was astounded that I was there and would not just let her in.  Or the guy that gave me the finger because I had the audacity to honk at him after hit almost hit us while passing to the right on the shoulder...yeah, I'm the douche.  

jmabarone said:

jharry3 said:

I see rampant red light running on a daily basis.  Not running a turning red light because they entered the intersection on yellow and it changed.

Red light running (RLR) when crossing traffic was already getting ready to move, or actually had been moving,  and the chaotic evil imbecile just runs it anyway.  I have seen two crashes in the last few months that happened just because of this behavior. I saw a guy legally crossing in a crosswalk, on his bicycle, almost get creamed by a RLR.   People are afraid to cross on a fresh green until they verify all the crossing traffic has actually stopped.  This holds up progress but its the safe decision.

 

Bumper to bumper 5mph traffic, a lady in a Tesla X almost running into the side of our E350 (giant white van) while trying to merge because she NEVER LOOKED BESIDE HER.  

 

That's the exact situation that lead to my 4yo asking why I stuck out my finger...

jmabarone said:

With that said, I think there is a definite attitude among drivers more now that they are obviously the most important person in the world.  Obviously not the same as what some of you experience, but our most recent trip back from FL after Christmas had a few fun episodes. 

Bumper to bumper 5mph traffic, a lady in a Tesla X almost running into the side of our E350 (giant white van) while trying to merge because she NEVER LOOKED BESIDE HER.  She was astounded that I was there and would not just let her in.  Or the guy that gave me the finger because I had the audacity to honk at him after hit almost hit us while passing to the right on the shoulder...yeah, I'm the douche. 

That definitely jives with the kind of stuff I see regularly.  People just assuming you'll move out of their way, not understanding that it's their responsibility to merge safely, getting mad when you point out the dangerous thing they just did, etc. 

codrus (Forum Supporter) said:

ProDarwin said:

Right.  Not saying its acceptable behavior, but to assign Tesla fault also seems crazy to me.  Braking with the intent to cause an accident is obviously wrong.  But to try and hold someone (something) accountable for slamming on their brakes both creates an environment were people might be hesitant to do so (insane) and normalizes tailgating as acceptable.

AFAIK stopping on the freeway for no reason (which is effectively what the Tesla did) is a ticketable offense.

And from the video I watched, the people who piled into it (and each other) were not "tailgating".  Yes, they were "following too closely" by the standard of not leaving enough room between them and the car in front to come to a complete stop, but nobody does that.

Yes, and it should absolutely be a ticketable offense.

But the cause of the accident was people running into a car that stopped.  Just because the car stopped for no reason does not absolve them of fault for running into it.

This might be a odd reference but when ever I watch a Star Wars flight action, it's hard for me to believe that humans ( I guess you exclude the Jedi's) can fly something that is incredibly fast even with all the nannies. Imagine someone 50 years ago cruising at 70mph+ on the highway, people are more in a rush now. I don't think it's the nannies, I think most humans have not evolved to handle the speed and need to slow down. Plus think about all the technology that distracts everyone. It's Dunkin Donuts and McDonalds fault