Does this local shop overcharge much?

Our 21 y.o. daughter recently had the upper radiator hose slip off the radiator of her 2001 4Runner and blow coolant everywhere.  She let it cool, reattached the hose, and drove the 1/2 mile to work.  Later, she topped up the coolant (Walmart right next door) and let it run for a bit, then tried driving home.  It started getting hot within a couple of miles, so she parked it and got a ride.

Today, the shop that it was towed to gave her what I consider to be a crazy estimate for repairs.  They want $3300 for a new radiator and hoses, intake gaskets, and valve cover gaskets.  I haven't seen it, but it has just over 300k miles, so coolant and oil leaks are not unexpected.  I won't question their diagnosis (yet), but $657 for a Denso radiator that I can buy for $137?  The other parts have similar markup.  Labor is labor, but almost $1000 in labor just for the intake and valve cover gaskets?  Does this sound reasonable?

I told her we'll tow it here, park it in the garage, and order the $400 in parts to do what the shop said it needed.  My labor is cheap.  The biggest concern is what we'll find while we're in there.  But she can drive my FJ while I'm working on the 4Runner.  Also, she wants to learn more about working on it, so can help.  Online videos make this all look fairly easy.

Well, I have not worked on a 4Runner, but that really sounds like they saw her coming.... And I would not have been surprised if the estimate had grown if they had been allowed to do the work.

You are a good dad!

Just because you can buy it for 140$ doesn't mean the shop can buy it for that plus have profit to keep the doors open. Most shops are charging cost plus 1.5-2 times their price for parts.

if you want it done with a $140 part it's going to be done in your driveway. I'm not really trying to be an shiny happy person here but damn....

JoeTR6 said:

They want $3300 for a new radiator and hoses, intake gaskets, and valve cover gaskets. 

I'm questioning what they're trying to accomplish as well as how much it costs, and I'm interested to know why it overheated. Is the water pump bad? I'm betting it's that, but there is no mention of any *cure* for the issue in the estimate provided.

The hose came off. Nothing to do with a water pump from what I read.

Very likely the head gasket(s) is poofed. 

Typical shop markup on parts in the industry is 30-35% unless they are greedy. 

Ranger50 said:

Just because you can buy it for 140$ doesn't mean the shop can buy it for that plus have profit to keep the doors open. Most shops are charging cost plus 1.5-2 times their price for parts.

if you want it done with a $140 part it's going to be done in your driveway. I'm not really trying to be an shiny happy person here but damn....

Rock Auto sells parts for cheaper than my shop can buy them through normal channels.  That's because they are selling from the supplier or first-tier reseller at next to no markup.

Rock Auto also has been found to be selling counterfeit parts, and their warranty or returns policy if the parts are defective out of the box is basically "shrug"

I am assuming the valve cover gaskets are leaking oil, which is a concern but not the primary one.  If this engine is what I think it is, the water pump would account for $1200+ labor so they probably didn't find that to be faulty.

ddavidv said:

 

Very likely the head gasket(s) is poofed. 

This would be my concern.  Any way to be sure it didn't overheat?

With that kind of mileage, it might not even need to.

My greatest concern would be that $3300 later, you've got a vehicle with a blown head gasket.

Sounds to me like they're just throwing parts at it. 

Ranger50 said:

Just because you can buy it for 140$ doesn't mean the shop can buy it for that plus have profit to keep the doors open. Most shops are charging cost plus 1.5-2 times their price for parts.

if you want it done with a $140 part it's going to be done in your driveway. I'm not really trying to be an shiny happy person here but damn....

The shop quoted the OP $657 for the radiator. That's a big leap from cost plus 2x. I'm 100% on board with supporting local shops and the reasonable markups necessary for them to thrive. To answer the OPs question, no, this does not sound reasonable to me. 

IMO, it's very unlikely that the upper radiator hose just slipped off. My guess is that something else preceded that event. 

Cost plus 2x is not a reasonable markup. That's a complete ripoff and trying to justify it by citing overhead like all businesses don't have it is silly.

The shop is charging what they think the customer will bear. Yes they're overcharging. No question. 

Motojunky said:

IMO, it's very unlikely that the upper radiator hose just slipped off. My guess is that something else preceded that event. 

Agree.  Is the radiator even bad?  Did they do any tests for the head gasket?  What does the oil look like?  

Many years ago, I was driving my aunt's borrowed VW to work and it blew a head gasket, lost power, and quit.  The first shop I brought it to installed new spark plugs, then threw up their hands.  Didn't even check compression.  I didn't know what I didn't know at the time.  Towed it back to my aunt's regular, competent, shop for a proper diagnosis.

It was quite a fiasco.  :)  My uncle was pretty high up at IBM and had managed to get me a summer job but he was on the business side so it was non-technical and useless for me.  I had no money to fix the VW and they weren't interested.  I couldn't afford to rent a car so I went back to school for the summer.  Their au pair, now without a car for evenings/weekends, also left.  God as my witness, I did not beat on that car one bit but I think they suspected it was my fault until the end of time.

Parts markup is why I started doing my own work. I had a local shop quote me $30 more do do a brake job (front rotors and pads) than the dealer who uses OEM parts. The local shop was definitely not using OEM parts.

I'm also concerned they're throwing parts at it, a hose shouldn't just blow off like that unless a clamp had loosened up or there was a pressurizing event. The fact that it began to get hot again so quickly also points to it being a bigger issue.

I'm not clear on what the valve cover gaskets have to do with the cooling system problem, but they may have noticed leaking and added it to the bill. Most cars of that age will have leaking valve cover gaskets, so that feels less critical (having not seen it in person).

I'll echo others' concern that you put that money into fixing the cooling system only to find out it's a head gasket or water pump.

In reply to Ranger50 :

I trust you guys, so that's why I asked the question here.  I'm not a pro mechanic by any stretch, and there are things they deal with that I don't.   But even Toyota MSRP for this radiator is $181, so I was surprised that the shop was over 3 times that.  Things have changed, so I'm just trying to evaluate what's reasonable nowadays.

Seems like they are using factory parts and charging dealer retail.  A lot of shops do this for quality reasons.  That typed, they seem to be charging a lot for labor.  My son went thru this years ago, a shop gets a car with 150K+ miles and wants to fix everything.  Six years ago they wanted 2500 to get his prius inspected, shopping list of stuff.  I actually bought him another car, towed it to him, fixed the old one and resold it.  Total cost including towing rental was $500!  It needed a wheel bearing, did both, and brake pads.  Sold his old car with the new sticker and parts.  

Doing this stuff yourself is a logical and economical choice and a good reason to spend some time with the kid.

I am assuming the valve cover gaskets are leaking oil, which is a concern but not the primary one.  If this engine is what I think it is, the water pump would account for $1200+ labor so they probably didn't find that to be faulty.

The valve cover gaskets were a "while we're in there" job, and they offered a discount for doing it at the same time as the intake gaskets.  They did a pressure test, so I believe that there's an intake/radiator leak and that the valve covers are weeping some oil.  Their diagnostics aren't what I'm questioning so much as the price.  Some things I failed to mention are that the water pump is less than a year old, replaced by a reputable shop.  Head gaskets were a concern when that event occurred, and they were holding at the time.  i just did an oil change a week ago and the oil looked/smelled fine (for used motor oil).  But it is possible a head gasket blew.  Fingers crossed it's not that.  I suspect our daughter didn't get the coolant entirely filled after work at night in the cold, and that's why it overheated.  The shop said nothing about it overheating after refilling and doing a pressure check, and I trust that.  But yes, this engine could be a ticking bomb for all I know about it.  Our history with it only goes back 1.5 years.

The reason I almost always do my own repairs.    I'd start with a compression test to rule out the head gasket.   

Definitely confirm the head gaskets are good before going too far.  It was driven after the hose popped off and before adding coolant.  Even if it never showed on the gauge, the system wasn't full and likely had air in the heads.  So it's entirely possible to have had hot spots bad enough to cause an issue without it showing on the gauge. 

In reply to rslifkin :

Agreed.  One thing in our favor is that it's harder to miss a geyser of coolant blowing out of the grill.  A slow leak where the coolant level gets too low scares me more.  I intend to do a compression check first thing.  But it is possible a head gasket blew, then the hose popped off.

In reply to JoeTR6 :

That's the vague impression I get.  Hoses don't just blow off for the hell of it if they haven't been disturbed lately.

I had been mistaken earlier, I didn't realize this was one of the old longitudinal engine trucks with the old timing belt engine.  That makes labor dramatically cheaper 

Valve cover gaskets is 2.7hr, the difference in labor between doing the upper and lower intakes is 1.3, so plus fluids and cleaning my guesstimate is 1000-1500 in labor just for that, dependent on your local labor rates.  Plus the radiator, which may or may not be also an issue.  Without seeing the vehicle, it's hard to say.

I'd be more curious to know why the hose popped off in the first place.

If I was going that far into the engine I would just go ahead and do the head gaskets. 

Pete. (l33t FS) said:

In reply to JoeTR6 :

That's the vague impression I get.  Hoses don't just blow off for the hell of it if they haven't been disturbed lately.

I had been mistaken earlier, I didn't realize this was one of the old longitudinal engine trucks with the old timing belt engine.  That makes labor dramatically cheaper 

 

Valve cover gaskets is 2.7hr, the difference in labor between doing the upper and lower intakes is 1.3, so plus fluids and cleaning my guesstimate is 1000-1500 in labor just for that, dependent on your local labor rates.  Plus the radiator, which may or may not be also an issue.  Without seeing the vehicle, it's hard to say.

I'd be more curious to know why the hose popped off in the first place.

Right, this is a 3rd gen 4Runner.  Access appears pretty good minus a few fasteners behind stuff. The shop did recommend replacing the hoses because they are hardened.  The clamp may have been loosened when the water pump was replaced, but not certain.  We'll see next week.

I understand the labor charge overall.  It's a 300k mile engine, so there's lots of opportunities for breakage of connectors, etc.  Less chance of stuck fasteners because of Colorado.   They are probably going by the book and a $100+ labor rate.  But our daughter can't afford the bill, and it would be a stretch for us right now.  So I get to use my new garage for something other than storage.

Floating Doc (Forum Supporter) said:

If I was going that far into the engine I would just go ahead and do the head gaskets. 

The thought did cross my mind.  Maybe after I have a closer look.

JoeTR6 said:

In reply to rslifkin :

Agreed.  One thing in our favor is that it's harder to miss a geyser of coolant blowing out of the grill.  A slow leak where the coolant level gets too low scares me more.  I intend to do a compression check first thing.  But it is possible a head gasket blew, then the hose popped off.

It's definitely possible that a failed head gasket started the whole thing, but I'm more concerned about the description that she put the hose back on and then drove it *before* adding any coolant. 

On the parts price - I'll be the shop owner for a moment.  You will expect that if that part fails in the first week (or 5 years) that I will replace it no charge.  That means I need a trusted partner distributor to provide me with parts that make me comfortable from a quality perspective.  Yes, you may be able to buy it cheaper from Rock Auto, but that's not the right business model for me to stay in business.  It's galling from the hobbyist perspective because we know where to source cheaper parts from.

glueguy (Forum Supporter) said:

On the parts price - I'll be the shop owner for a moment.  You will expect that if that part fails in the first week (or 5 years) that I will replace it no charge.  That means I need a trusted partner distributor to provide me with parts that make me comfortable from a quality perspective.  Yes, you may be able to buy it cheaper from Rock Auto, but that's not the right business model for me to stay in business.  It's galling from the hobbyist perspective because we know where to source cheaper parts from.

The OP addresses this in a post above. Toyota MSRP for this radiator is $181. $657 is a hefty markup. (edited following the OPs clarification below)

But yes, in general, places like Rock Auto make it very difficult for shop owners. 

I get what glueguy is saying.  This shop does good work and I trust them.  The work order listed a Denso radiator (I'd assume from a reputable supplier), Continental hoses, and FelPro gaskets.  Good stuff.  I quoted $181 for what I could find a Denso radiator from a Toyota dealer.  I won't touch Amazon, but have had decent luck with RockAuto in the past.  But caveat emptor applies here.  I'm willing to take the chance and possibly reorder parts and risk using counterfeit ones assuming I can't tell they are such.  A local shop shouldn't be.  Their estimate is above *my* threshold for this job, but they need to make a living.

1.5 years ago, we had a transfer case go out on a CX-9, and I had neither the time nor knowledge for that job.  I gave it to them, and it wasn't cheap.  But the job was done right, and the parts price was reasonable in that case.