The other day, a few of us on staff trekked over to the Florida International Rally & Motorsport Park in Keystone Heights, Florida, to do a little testing of some project cars. As our official test track, The FIRM is a massive resource that allows us to run a consistent strip of asphalt as we develop projects or simply test …
Looks absolutely gorgeous in pics. I love EVs but a 911 is still a must have for me before it's all over. Just awesome.
“The only way to improve this car is to ruin it,"
Nice turn of phrase. I still can't get past the reliability issues of the m96, but articles like this make it seem pretty tempting.
Yes. :-)
Absolutely, and that applies whether it's appearance or performance modifications.
Always amazed me that folks pay the big bucks for Porsche engineering...and then use their own ideas to try to improve it. JG got it right IMHO...
CrustyRedXpress said:“The only way to improve this car is to ruin it,"
Nice turn of phrase. I still can't get past the reliability issues of the m96, but articles like this make it seem pretty tempting.
Reliability issues? Sounds like a potential area for improvement to me
In reply to MauryH :
The nice thing about Porsche is you can go into their parts catalog and improve your car with their stuff. So you know it's gonna fit and work properly. That's what I've done, the brakes, intercoolers and some of the suspension parts are OEM Porsche.
One needs to work out a whole lot of dumb hot-rodding compulsions to be able to truly appreciate good engineering.
The first time I saw a C7 Corvette at an autocross showed me an incredibly limber and compliant car that never lost grip. Twenty year-old me would have seen a sloshy boat that seriously needed stiff shocks and fat sway bars . . .
MauryH said:Always amazed me that folks pay the big bucks for Porsche engineering...and then use their own ideas to try to improve it. JG got it right IMHO...
The thing I've learned from owning a few porsches and watching other people modify them is that porsche is really good at optimizing the car for the stock parts. Put coilovers on a miata and it's basically world changing. Put coilovers on a cayman and maybe it's a bit more fun to drive and easier on tires, but the actual performance potential is pretty much unchanged. They do generally benefit from a bit more rear swaybar to dial out the factory engineered safety understeer, but there's a couple of choices of OEM parts that take care of that. Even in the factory engineered upgraded cars (ie the GT car range) the performance potential in an autocross setting where you can't really make use of the extra power is almost nothing. Actually a lot of people would probably be faster in the non-GT car because, while a touch slower, they're much more approachable and forgiving to drive.
The key issue of "ruin" is context. Ruined for the street may also mean way better on the track. The primary usage should determine what, if any, modifications should be made. I like my Kia Forte GT just as it is for it's primary usage - daily driver. The only things I can imagine changing are maybe 30 more HP and an LSD to put it all down better in corners. My next car is going to be a (barely) streetable track car. I'm a short drive to two tracks. Any further and I will probably rent a truck and trailer. To some that sounds ruined. To me, it's exactly what I want.
Then again, I may opt for a Caterham, which comes pre-ruined. :-)
Medford is a hop skip and a jump from many NW hillclimb events. Talk about the most fun one can have with their clothes on...
Well of course. I've ruined dozens of cars by trying to improve them.
But if I didn't spend time ruining cars for a hobby, what in the heck would I do with my hands in between drinks?
Any Tom, JG, or Harry can buy a new warrentied fancy pants faster than hell corvette, but can they ruin a perfectly good 15 year old German Sports Car (GSC)? That's what we are all here to find out.
Next months headline of GRM "How to buy a nice car and drive it." :-)
When I started autocross, I was talking to another driver and I asked him "how can you afford to race a Porsche?"
He answered "I can't afford not to, everything is already sorted for you."
ShawnG said:When I started autocross, I was talking to another driver and I asked him "how can you afford to race a Porsche?"
He answered "I can't afford not to, everything is already sorted for you."
I fully believe that but it's not the recipe for me since I actually enjoy turning wrenches instead of other things I could do with my spare time, like watching sportsball
Yup, Porsche just gets it like no other car manufacturer!
I remember tracking my 944 turbo for the first time several years ago. I expected it to need so much to be track happy but I found that it was pretty darned good right out of the box. Sure, it could have had soft compound tires and true race pads but otherwise, it was really perfect. And it held up to new Boxsters at the time (2001). It was even trouble free although all that heat under the hood would have surely taken its toll if I had continued to track it. And all this with around 100k miles.
Cut to more modern days with my acquisition of a '00 Boxster S and I'm shocked at all the manufacturing short cuts and unPorschelike issues with this car, especially when it comes to moderate track usage. I'd be so afraid to track this car unless I had close to $10k in my pocket waiting for, not if, but when it blew up. Sure, you can push your luck with these cars and risk it, but the risk is much, much higher than with most other cars.
So be careful with that 997 and the track. Of course, to properly track it, you only need a deep sump (to quell oil cavitation and cooling, $300-800) a better oil baffle (same, $300-500), X51 aux oil pump (to stave off hydrolock in the head under heavy braking, cornering, $1500 but NLA), IMS bearing (uh, *rabbit hole warning,* $400-1800), lots and lots of luck (to thwart bore scoring, bore ovality, AOS issues, oil filtration, waiter pump problems, rod bolt stretch, cylinder D chunking, cracked heads, and a few others I'm forgetting. So basically you need nearly $5000 to make a "modern" Porsche reliable on the track?!? I'm not sure what they were thinking, I guess profits to keep the company alive at the time.
Great cars but arghhhhh, just arghhhhh....Not the Porsches I grew up with but still lovely to drive. I love my 986S but haven't driven it in a year since the engine & tranny are out of it with possible transmission failure and engine renewal that has run into thousands of dollars just in parts without even breaking into the crankcase (that would be another $1200 just for parts to refresh and update.)
And yet I still love the car and figure had the car not had any of these issues, would it still be affordable these days? Probably not. However, think hard before committing or even driving one because once that happens, you won't be able to get it out of your system!
I'm mostly expecting the 62 Midget duratec build to ruin a fun little car. A large party for me has been the engineering and build, and I hope that putting a decent stereo in it will keep some of the good natured street in it. I'm working hard to make the 63 Mini build not ruined- but I am putting a d16 in it. I hope that enhances the already inherent goodness of the whole thing, but it is tempting to do a full build on the motor.
I have a PASM 987 but the shocks are going bad. For the same, or less, money I can put Olins coilovers on it. It will not ruin it for me as I have had a couple coilover-ed cars and liked them.
Can you ruin a car with mods, absolutely. Depends on the mods and the car.
My 2022 BRZ isn't a 911, but after a year with it, I understand your point. I live in Nebraska so canyon carving isn't a thing, but I am an avid autocrosser. I did the "autocrosser" thing and put fatter tires and an adjustable front swaybar on. Faster for autocross? Yeah. More fun? No. I backed the swaybar off to full soft, put the "crappy" Primacy tires back on, and the love affair was renewed. This was fun again. A friend said I have to choose between being competitive and having fun; hopefully, I can find the middle ground.
There's definitely a happy medium. After several E30s I'm trying to build the 325es to hit the "better without being worse" mark and keep the 318is for the more hard-edged entertainment. "i" swap, narrower wheel and tire package that doesn't tramline or rub. E36 rack, but keep the power steering. Quiet exhaust. Replace all the bushings and whatnot so it is nice and tight. I've driven some well-built cars on track and have found that, for non-competitive track day and back road purposes, I really enjoy a car that moves around a bit, isn't upset when it hits a few bumps on the local worn out pavement, lets me play with curbs and different lines even if it's at the expense of lap times, and that doesn't require earplugs to stave off headaches. After driving just the 318is for so long, when I bought this thing even as a completely stock automatic car, I definitely remember realizing it was a much nicer place to spend time on the daily commute.
I'm also just excited because after 2 years off the road, it looks like I'm actually going to be able to drive it again in the next month or two!
BobbyBusso said:Yup, Porsche just gets it like no other car manufacturer!
I remember tracking my 944 turbo for the first time several years ago. I expected it to need so much to be track happy but I found that it was pretty darned good right out of the box. Sure, it could have had soft compound tires and true race pads but otherwise, it was really perfect. And it held up to new Boxsters at the time (2001). It was even trouble free although all that heat under the hood would have surely taken its toll if I had continued to track it. And all this with around 100k miles.
Cut to more modern days with my acquisition of a '00 Boxster S and I'm shocked at all the manufacturing short cuts and unPorschelike issues with this car, especially when it comes to moderate track usage. I'd be so afraid to track this car unless I had close to $10k in my pocket waiting for, not if, but when it blew up. Sure, you can push your luck with these cars and risk it, but the risk is much, much higher than with most other cars.
So be careful with that 997 and the track. Of course, to properly track it, you only need a deep sump (to quell oil cavitation and cooling, $300-800) a better oil baffle (same, $300-500), X51 aux oil pump (to stave off hydrolock in the head under heavy braking, cornering, $1500 but NLA), IMS bearing (uh, *rabbit hole warning,* $400-1800), lots and lots of luck (to thwart bore scoring, bore ovality, AOS issues, oil filtration, waiter pump problems, rod bolt stretch, cylinder D chunking, cracked heads, and a few others I'm forgetting. So basically you need nearly $5000 to make a "modern" Porsche reliable on the track?!? I'm not sure what they were thinking, I guess profits to keep the company alive at the time.
Great cars but arghhhhh, just arghhhhh....Not the Porsches I grew up with but still lovely to drive. I love my 986S but haven't driven it in a year since the engine & tranny are out of it with possible transmission failure and engine renewal that has run into thousands of dollars just in parts without even breaking into the crankcase (that would be another $1200 just for parts to refresh and update.)
And yet I still love the car and figure had the car not had any of these issues, would it still be affordable these days? Probably not. However, think hard before committing or even driving one because once that happens, you won't be able to get it out of your system!
Be careful, the Porsche guys will come after you about how the reliability concern is "internet overblown" and BMW's are just as bad cause rod bearings need preventatively replaced every 80k miles.
Did somebody page me? lol. My first 944 turbo was great on track with just a set of brake pads and proper fluids. Eventually the heat would've cooked a bunch of stuff and the fact that it was old would raise its ugly head in the guise of failing rubber and fuel lines. My 996 turbo has basically been bomb proof on track but I bought it for that reason, knowing that a half dozen local 996's and caymans have had catastrophic engine failures on track. My friends Spec Boxster has been running strong but he's got a bunch of spares, like spare transmission etc.
In reply to Olemiss540 :
This is why you spring for the 997.2/987.2 engines. Completely different and better in basically every way. They'll still need a few small things, but nothing like the 996/997.1/986/987.1 engines.
On a side not, BMW M engines just need their bearings replaced once at 80K miles. Once you have ACL or King bearings in there, you're good.
docwyte said:Did somebody page me? lol. My first 944 turbo was great on track with just a set of brake pads and proper fluids. Eventually the heat would've cooked a bunch of stuff and the fact that it was old would raise its ugly head in the guise of failing rubber and fuel lines. My 996 turbo has basically been bomb proof on track but I bought it for that reason, knowing that a half dozen local 996's and caymans have had catastrophic engine failures on track. My friends Spec Boxster has been running strong but he's got a bunch of spares, like spare transmission etc.
Absolutely adored my 996TT and still believe them to be one of the most beautiful cars of all time. Just couldn't handle the potential of a synchro failure necessitating a tranny rebuild that costs more than my e36 m3 was purchased for. Sucks to be broke :-(
So had to Ls swap a E36 M3box racecar instead to try for 996TT speed at half the cost. In no way the model of reliability but atleast when it breaks I can afford to fix it (continuously).
In reply to Olemiss540 :
Just don't see too many transmission failures in my car. Very few people complaining about them on rennlist or 6speedonline for instance....
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