Doing Your Time - Car Progression or Ladder

I'm sure this has probably been talked about before but it isn't an easy thing to search for so I figured I'd just start a new thread.

I'm in a position where I'm ready for another fun car. I've been out of cars as a hobby for maybe 4-5 years because I've been busy with life but I'd like to get back to it. Current fun car is an NB Miata. I don't think I have to say anything about why that's a fun car. You guys get it. The only thing I might add is that the car was much slower back when I had more, faster fun cars at the same time but curiously, as those cars have gone away, the Miata keeps getting faster. It just goes without saying that the best mod you can make to a car is to not drive it as often and make sure everything else you drive is slower and less fun.

So, I'm looking for another fun car because the Miata is getting a little tired and rusty and I can spend anywhere from 10-40k on a replacement. I like to be somewhat financially wise so I prefer to buy used cars that are done or nearly done depreciating. That leads to some of the obvious choices that I'm sure everyone here looks at:

6-10k: E36 M3

10-15k: S2000, E46 M3

15-20k: C5 Z06, FD RX7

???: Maybe C6 Z06?

30-40k: Elise

40-45k: 996TT

All of these are classic enthusiast cars that I haven't owned yet, all of which I tend to think will both give great fun and won't change in value much. That matters because if I end up doing some catch and release, it won't hurt as much.

Anyway, the point of the thread is:

Do you guys think you need to put in your time in slower cars and gradually improve on them in order to get the most appreciation and enjoyment out of them?

I could jump straight to the 996TT and get an incredible experience. It would be an order of magnitude faster and "better" than anything I've had before. But would I enjoy it as much and would it ruin me for catching and releasing the other great cars on that example list above?

If an experience is new to you, do you want to go out and immediately do the best or one of the best versions of it? I just learned to scuba dive two years ago. There are some destinations that are fairly universally regarded as the best spots to dive. But if I go dive those right off the bat, how much fun will everything else be?

What do you guys think? Do you think you've climbed the ladder and have you gotten more out of cars as a result? Or does your chronological car ownership look like a drunken meander? Do you like to catch and release or are you fine with or even prefer long term relationships?

Minjin wrote: **Do you guys think you need to put in your time in slower cars and gradually improve on them in order to get the most appreciation and enjoyment out of them?** I could jump straight to the 996TT and get an incredible experience. It would be an order of magnitude faster and "better" than anything I've had before. But would I enjoy it as much and would it ruin me for catching and releasing the other great cars on that example list above? What do you guys think? Do you think you've climbed the ladder and have you gotten more out of cars as a result? Or does your chronological car ownership look like a drunken meander? Do you like to catch and release or are you fine with or even prefer long term relationships?

No, I don't think you "need" to climb the ladder if you've got the financial resources to start high. How long people keep cars and what they buy is a very individual decision, so you'll get lots of answers. I have automotive ADD, I've had more cars than I can count...literally. I've been all over the map, top to bottom. Generally speaking, I "climbed the ladder" when I first started out, then I went back down the ladder as my wife and I had more kids. Now I'm closer to the bottom, but am happy because I choose to spend my extra car money doing racing.

I also don't think you'll ruin your experience by starting in a higher car and going to a lower priced one. I'm not going to lie and say I think driving a worn out NA Miata is as much fun as driving a nice Z06. It's just not, at least not for me. However, you can still have fun with whatever you have.

Not counting boring DDs, I've gone as cheap as a $100 1981 Honda Prelude and as high as a FFR Cobra replica and a '99 Viper GTS. Been everywhere in the middle too...AW11 MR2, countless Miatas, many Mustangs, C5 Corvettes (modified), '04 GTO (modified), '39 Dodge street rod, '67 XKE w/5.0L conversion. They've all been fun in their own way. Current toy is an NC Miata. I really enjoy the car (it's my second NC). My dream toy? No. But I'm enjoying it every time I get in.

No need to stair step, just get what you want. You can always just not use all of the capabilities of the fast car as you get used to it. I went from a DD NA Miata to a Z4M coupe 6 years ago, that was a big jump. Current DD is a 500hp AMG, even faster, but not quite as fun. Neither are as fun as our 162whp turbo 89 Civic Lemons car. Just get whatever strikes your fancy no matter how fast it is. Your tastes will change and what seems the best to you now will not be after a while.

My Z4M coupe is about to go up for sale as part of a fleet size reduction, and that fits nicely in with the rest of your list. It has been a fantastic car and I would recommend one.

No need to move up the ladder. It's bigger to respect the power of the new car especially if you are making a big jump in power.

I've been all over the list with modified V8's pony cars, Turbo DSM's, 100 HP lightweight mirages, Vtec hondas, getting my 3rd miata tomorrow. But get what you want and can afford and then enjoy it.

I'll echo the idea the fun is relative, and not generally based on the investment size nor the raw numbers a car can achieve.

I expect it may take some time before you will find the ideal car that is most fun to you. But when you do find it, you'll know. And then you can keep it.

I think you should look at the S2k, C5 Z06 and C6 Z06 most closely. Those are in the butterzone of price vs. speed.

Elises aren't getting any cheaper, so picking up a good one sounds like a good idea to me. Plus you're unlikely to get any other car with that level of feedback.

Of course the other Answer would be to get an Answer in nice, rust free condition and stick a good turbo kit on it.

I'd say going up the ladder would be worthwhile if you were going to get serious with HPDE/TT and learning to consistently and safely drive fast at the limit.

If you just want something nice and fun to take on weekend trips, drive down curvy backroads, and maybe just the occasional HPDE/AutoX...........buy whatever you want and can afford and enjoy.

Climbing the ladder is an interesting concept. Usually it is totally self-imposed by the user on themselves. By that I mean that there are a lot of people who think like you or me, that you should move up a little at a time, based on some sort of belief in "earning your way" instilled into us at some point in our life.

But there are a lot of people out there who simply didn't get the memo. I can't tell you the number of people I have met who have 911 Turbo's, etc. and if you ask them what they either don't understand the question or just tell you it was a Camry.

Same thing with motorcycles - I had a co-worker whose husband had a Ducati 999S. I asked about his love of motorcycles, and found out that he and his brother just got interested in the past year and BOTH went out and got themselves litre-class superbikes. I guess neither of them died, so it all worked out in the end.

I can't really add to this topic (but I'm posting anyway). I've had two Fairmonts over the course of 30 years, and my progression was regulated by when I had the money and developed the knowledge to make improvements. I with my most recent engine failure, I may take a short-term step back in power production, but by spring there will be a net increase there.

You can't lose with any M3, get one and don't worry about the rest of the stuff - you're over analyzing.

Get what you want. Doesnt matter if you do hpde, autoX, drag, or none of them. There's no ladder to me. It's what you want vs can afford, if you can spring for that 45k 996t now then go for it. Never know later on you may have obligations that keep you from ever getting that expensive fast car that you've always wanted.

My uncle told me you wait until I'm about 40 to get anything expensive or toy like. Hell, who's to say I'll be here in 12 years? I've had enough brushes with Death in my lower 20s to know life is too short to work hard and not enjoy!

In the 20-30k segment don't forget about the Porsche 987.1 and 987.2 Boxster S and Cayman S. 30k+ let's not count out the excellent 997.1 carrera s 911. There's also the nsx, if you're lucky lol.

Look at it this way, every teenager in Dubai starts out with 600HP+ Or heck, check out a high school parking lot in a rich neighborhood and count how many cars have less than 300hp.

ROI is terrible on track toys. They need a lot of prep work and set up and once you start down this road, you will want to get the best times out of the car. You will spend way more than you can sell it for. The more times you switch cars, the more you lose.

If I had saved the money I spent on my evolution; Boxster S, 944 Turbo, FR-S, M3, Corvette C4, Corvette C5, I could have easily bought a 996 Turbo. Hell, I'll bet I could have bought a nice used GT-3.

Buy the car you want to drive, don't waste money stepping up from one car to another. Been there, got the shirt...

I have mixed feelings about this. One part of me says to buy the car you want to drive and learn how to go fast in it.

On the other hand, aside from the E36 and S2000, the cars you've listed are fast cars. I think climbing the ladder financially is not necessary, but climbing a ladder for performance might be. I was at Blackhawk Farms Raceway for a DE a few weeks ago and someone planted a car into the tire wall. I was at Blackhawk again for a DE on Wednesday and a brand new 911 Turbo S went off at 1 right behind me. He also hit a tire wall.

Cars are so fast nowadays that there's not a lot of margin for error. The nannies won't save you, and going that fast means you can really do some damage.

We were all talking about that. Going off at 1... I mean, I've gone off there plenty of times. All of us had gone off at probably every corner on that track over the years, because going off track in a 240hp 968 and going off in a 582hp Turbo S have very different consequences.

The guys who buy a GT3 and that's their first track car... Those guys are going to have a way harder time getting better and driving faster. The car simply does too much for you and you feel like you're making up for low cornering speeds with high straight speeds.

I was chasing a bunch of C7 Z06s, a Ferrari 458, a GT350R, and that Turbo on Wednesday. Blackhawk has two long straights and they would sprint away from me at 6. Coming back into 1, I couldn't even see them anymore, but by the time I'm floored at 4, I'm right back on their bumper again. Each of them started off in cars that are fast enough to be really difficult to learn how to actually drive.

Put a rollbar in the Miata, freshen it up, then take it to the track. Do thirty or forty days in it, then move up to something else. You'll end up being a way better driver. You'll learn a lot more. Being able to drive a slow, floppy car fast means you'll most likely be able to drive a fast, stiff car fast.

One man's experience: I'm in my 5th summer of DEs. I started with a brand new 2013 E92 M3 with 400hp (keeping all the nannies off) and a 1979 323i with 120hp. I drove them each about 50% of the time, about 6 to 8 weekends a summer at multiple different tracks. I learned somewhat different skills with each car, but there was also a lot of overlap.

Driving the '79, I picked up skills about twice as fast (or more) than I did in the E92. There are a ton of things I can do in the M3 that would flat-out kill me if I tried them in the '79. But if I never had the '79, I wouldn't need to know any of those things.

Zillions of people are now showing up for HPDEs with really powerful fast cars, and they are finally getting enough skills to run with the fast groups. Even if they stink in the corners, they just don't point the '79 by, because they separate so fast after corner exit, it can't catch them again until pretty late in the next corner.

If they DID point me by, I would probably hold THEM up in the next two straights before I finally beat their momentum and separated from them permanently. I still have plenty of fun, but ultimately I'm doing it on their terms, even slowing up the straights sometimes so I don't get boxed in through the turns.

You already had a Miata so you know the slow car/no nanny thing. Also, if you take the best track car on the planet and learn to drive it -- fast -- in the rain with the nannies off, you will learn everything there is to learn about finesse. In your position, I would get the most Corvette I could afford (assuming I could stand to be seen storing it at my house). A very "robust" driving style appears to be called for, but they are wicked fast and cheap to fix.

Maybe I'm missing it but, where did he emphasise that this car will be seeing any track duty?

I for one would buy a 996 turbo today if I could but never would I track my own lol. I've never been behind the wheel of a car with crazy power on the track but oon the street I have plenty of times. The average Joe can go go Ford or Chevy and buy a pony car with 996tt power any day of the week.

Some people buy these cars and never hit a track and that's okay. I see the point in ladder progression in a track car. But, if that doesn't apply here then I don't get why people keep mentioning track days etc?

Honestly though, it doesn't seem like OP is talking about a track toy. Think we should keep the advice in the realm in which he's stating.

yupididit wrote: Maybe I'm missing it but, where did he emphasise that this car will be seeing any track duty?

That's a good point. I think I was replying to the other replies as much as the OP! For a street car, you can't use all of the performance of any one of these cars. In that case, drive what you're comfortable with and don't be an idiot.

I have a non-turbo 997 and a non-Z06 C6. Both of these cars are too fast for the street.

I think the answer to your question is: it depends. All of the cars you listed are very fast, and you'd be unable to use more than 50% of their performance on the street. The e46, vettes and certainly Porsche are easily capable of "go directly to jail" highway speeds. They're also great track cars. Which do you plan to emphasize more, track or street? If you plan to track them, how expensive a car would you be cool to walk away from if you ball it up on track? Would it be car you want to mod/wrench on yourself, or would you pay a shop?

I'm a huge advocate of buying the car you want, but I also think its important to figure out WHAT you want, and why.

Personally, I'm deep into an e46M3 that I hope is probably my forever car, but if I was starting over today I think the vette is the best combination of performance, durability, and cost.

If winning races is what you want and makes you smile drive the car that you are a contender in. If you are just having fun doing track days get the car that makes you smile.

The speed of a car is irrelevant. Find a car that you need a "grin-ectomy" every time you get out of it and that is the car for you.

IMO the 2009 - 2011 Cayman is the best looking Generation. Easily fits within your price range.

I have stuff all over that ladder.

My opinion is the experience is more important then power levels. IE just because you have something that has 900hp does not mean its as fun as something cheaper but that has more personality.

My opinion would be to save up and get what brings you the most joy. No matter how hard you try a "spec sheet" is just that, its not the fun part of the car.

Good discussion guys. I was looking for feedback on my situation but I was also just starting a general discussion. For reference, here is my car history (in approximate order of purchase, not necessarily when I sold it and minus anything completely unsporty):

1979 Ford Mustang

1986 Acura Integra

1984 Dodge Daytona

1984 VW Rabbit GTI

1984 VW Scirocco

1989 Merkur XR4Ti

1991 Mitsubishi Galant VR4

1983 Volvo 242

1984 Volvo 244

1992 Plymouth Laser AWD

1989 Volvo 740 Turbo Wagon

1996 Honda Civic EX

1999 Mazda Miata

1992 Subaru SVX (only auto except for the Mustang)

2000 Ford ZX2 SR

The VR4 was by far the quickest at somewhere in the high 300-400 hp range. A bunch of great handlers in the bunch, though mainly slower, momentum cars.

I've autoxed a bunch of these and rallycrossed the Galant. Never did do a track day but I've always wanted to. Haven't done it in the Miata yet because I haven't gotten around to putting a roll bar in it yet. Now I'm thinking I'd rather just pick up a nicer Miata (probably Mazdaspeed) and mod that.

I do like being able to use more of a car's performance on the street (within safe limits) so that to me is one downside of the fast cars.

Not looking for a full on highly modded track toy. I know how that story goes. I think I've learned my lesson about overmodding cars, spending too much time wrenching, making them less fun in the end, and not driving as much as I should. I do still love projects but I think I prefer then as a budget car or something fully custom like a Seven replica and not as modifying a great car and making it worse. For instance, I had a blast searching junkyards for old Volvo parts (yellow konis for 20 bucks!) and keeping everything as absolutely cheap as possible.

On the ladder topic, I think I come at it from the increasing enjoyment perspective. The not wanting to have the best now so you have something to look forward to. But I was also thinking about the getting used to power and being a better driver perspective that comes with a progression of speed and performance.

So having raced or tracked everything from early 80s Corolla to 700hp Vipers to fast single seat race cars I can tell you a Miata is the funniest thing you will ever drive.

For a mostly street car you could pick an intermediate choice from your list but it sounds like you like to tinker a bit so a better Miata may be the ticket.

There is really no wrong answer, try a car don't like it sell it off.

As an aside on the subject of the ladder and track days; newer cars are much easier to drive than older ones, so inexperienced drivers get sucked into believing everything is hunky dory until it isn't. Newer cars are also heavier so once out of control they travel farther, this is exacerbated by the higher levels of grip that means they are traveling even faster when they do go. So it's not much the horsepower but more of capability of the chassis and tires allied to,that horsepower. Also the same people who wad up these cars would have done the same in a Spec Miata it would just take them longer to do it.

Tom

you missed the 0-6k range

which I would say rx8 or two rx8s.