Domestic engine question...

Instead of getting into a whole bunch of specifications, let's try the question this way:

What US production engine "punches above it's weight class"? You can qualify that by torque/hp, reliability, low weight, whatever.

Go.

I have no clue what you are asking but I think the answer is just about every LSX motor built is the answer.

Does the 1.0 ecoboost count? Developed in Europe, but a Ford Motor and available here.

Mpg, hp, torque, it's all rated higher than my 1.6 miata, and I think it weighs less as well. Even compared to the na 1.6 in a Nissan versa(I'm guessing more modern than mine) it's still pretty far ahead stat wise.

The 4.6 and 5.0coyote. The technology and physical size makes them less swapped then the gm engines but they make better horsepower per cubic inch.

RevRico wrote: Developed in Europe

Tangent editorial. I hate those engines. Not the 1.0l listed, but the European ones.

Can't be specific in why, but I don't like them.

stroker wrote: Instead of getting into a whole bunch of specifications, let's try the question this way: What US production engine "punches above it's weight class"? You can qualify that by torque/hp, reliability, low weight, whatever. Go.

My gut and ego says the 3.5l Ecoboost that powers the GT. Especially the one in the race cars. Not too shabby for 3.5l.

The Neon engine. Either in 2.0 twin cam or SRT4 flavor.

Ford 5.0

Prior to the eco-boost, it was probably one of the least restrictive, highest power motors in standard production (i.e. Non-special edition, etc)

500 Cadillac. Yes it's huge. But it doesn't weigh much more that an iron Chevy small block and you can extract rediculous horsepower with accompanied torque.

GM LS/LT V8. Compared to any other 6 liter V8 it might just as well be a two-stroke for the size it takes up. You see LS swaps rather than Coyote or Splay Valve Magnum swaps for this reason.

When I saw the engine from the C7R Corvettes on a stand last year I was amazed. They're tiny. And they still have to run restrictors. They'll run out of tech eventually, but they're pretty amazing.

Buick 455. They were as fast or faster than a Hemi car in GS455 Stage 1 trim. Almost as light as a small block Chevy. Made bulldozer torque. Had a great bore-to-stroke ratio at 4.312"x3.900". Biggest weakness was the oiling system (fixable via the aftermarket) and that the performance versions weren't terribly common (Only way to really get them was in the '70-'72 Skylark).

Would also add the Buick 3.8L Turbo from the TTA, GN, GNX. When those were new they out-accelerated everything but the Porsche 911 Turbo and the Ferrari F40. In fact, it wasn't until the 5th-gen ZL-1 hit did GM make an F-body that would out accelerate the '89 Trans Am Turbo to 60mph.

Hemi is also up there except for the fact that it was simply massive and a lardass.

alfadriver wrote:

RevRico wrote: Developed in Europe

Tangent editorial. I hate those engines. Not the 1.0l listed, but the European ones. Can't be specific in why, but I don't like them.

When most people say "I can't be specific in why", they generally mean that they don't have a very good reason.

From your position, about this OEM, I have reason to believe this is more a technological issue which you are not authorized to discuss.

Am I right?

Also, Chevy 327 was somehow dramatically better than any small block prior, and generally the same or better performance than other 350s, at least from the SBC OEM world.

In reply to tuna55:

I was also going to say sbc for grassroots reasons. If a guy knows what hes doing i dont think it would be difficult to have a sbc for $1 per horsepower up to around 300 hp with careful swap meeting and good tuning. Plus the fact that they build like legos make life so easy.

In reply to tuna55:

Don't forget the unicorn that is the 383 stroker.

In chevy land, putting a 400 crank in a 350 block is somehow better than just building a 400.

I'll submit the Buick 350. I had one in a Jeep pickup and it was a great little torque monster.

Trans_Maro wrote: In reply to tuna55: Don't forget the unicorn that is the 383 stroker. In chevy land, putting a 400 crank in a 350 block is somehow better than just building a 400. I'll submit the Buick 350. I had one in a Jeep pickup and it was a great little torque monster.

I am not sure that fits with the general idea, because the 383 doesn't punch above its class, since I'd rather have a 400.

Seriously for size and weight, the Gen III/IV small block can't be beat. They're half the Physical size of the DOHC Fords. Yes, "cubic inch per cubic inch the fords make more"... but they also take up twice the space and adding big power costs big $$$. The LSx has more displacement because it can.

With the siamesed cylinder bores, core shift, and drilling steam holes in aftermarket heads, I'll take a 383 all week long.

Bobzilla wrote: Seriously for size and weight, the Gen III/IV small block can't be beat. They're half the Physical size of the DOHC Fords. Yes, "cubic inch per cubic inch the fords make more"... but they also take up twice the space and adding big power costs big $$$. The LSx has more displacement because it can.

Also, the Fords are pretty thin wall and once you hit 1000hp, the block becomes marginal (have it sleeved or step up to the Sportsman block) and you will have had to have upgraded the pistons and rods by that point. The LSx I have seen people make 1200+hp on stock guts and blocks. Hell, I built an engine that made 1400hp+ at 38psi on stock 4.8L rods and crank.

Appleseed wrote: With the siamesed cylinder bores, core shift, and drilling steam holes in aftermarket heads, I'll take a 383 all week long.

Pure cost per hp, it's nearly impossible to beat the original SBC. IIRC, I rebuilt the L98 in the C4 for under $1k, including over-boring, pistons, crank kit, valves, headwork, cam, intake, injectors, water pump, oilpump etc. That thing made stupid amounts of torque and good hp.

NickD wrote:

Bobzilla wrote: Seriously for size and weight, the Gen III/IV small block can't be beat. They're half the Physical size of the DOHC Fords. Yes, "cubic inch per cubic inch the fords make more"... but they also take up twice the space and adding big power costs big $$$. The LSx has more displacement because it can.

Also, the Fords are pretty thin wall and once you hit 1000hp, the block becomes marginal (have it sleeved or step up to the Sportsman block) and you will have had to have upgraded the pistons and rods by that point. The LSx I have seen people make 1200+hp on stock guts and blocks. Hell, I built an engine that made 1400hp+ at 38psi on stock 4.8L rods and crank.

The mod motor world record is using a factory ford block casting and is almsot 4/10ths faster in the 1/4 then the ls record using a billet block. Soooo were does this info come from?

In reply to tuna55:

Sorry, was sarcasm.

dropstep wrote:

NickD wrote:

Bobzilla wrote: Seriously for size and weight, the Gen III/IV small block can't be beat. They're half the Physical size of the DOHC Fords. Yes, "cubic inch per cubic inch the fords make more"... but they also take up twice the space and adding big power costs big $$$. The LSx has more displacement because it can.

Also, the Fords are pretty thin wall and once you hit 1000hp, the block becomes marginal (have it sleeved or step up to the Sportsman block) and you will have had to have upgraded the pistons and rods by that point. The LSx I have seen people make 1200+hp on stock guts and blocks. Hell, I built an engine that made 1400hp+ at 38psi on stock 4.8L rods and crank.

The mod motor world record is using a factory ford block casting and is almsot 4/10ths faster in the 1/4 then the ls record using a billet block. Soooo were does this info come from?

Right from Ford people themselves at Mustang 360

"As with any production-based engine, however, pushing the Coyote drastically beyond the intent of its original design has definite limits. Cracks show up figuratively and literally. For Ford’s 21st century 5.0, cracks can materialize in the factory cast-in-place iron cylinder liners, or sleeves.

“For most enthusiasts, it’s not really a problem until you start pushing toward 1,000 hp, although we’ve seen a lot of variance in factory blocks,” says Mike Schropp, a Coyote engine builder at Livernois Motorsports. “It’s true that we’ve seen cracked sleeves on cars with only about 500 hp and a bad tune, but generally the factory sleeves are good enough for most bolt-on performance enhancements.”

...

Schropp says, “If you’re building an engine for 1,000 hp or more, you’re going to be upgrading the rotating assembly, so it’s a smart and cost-effective procedure when you’re already going to tear down the engine. You just don’t want to risk the stock sleeves being the weak link in an otherwise strong combination.”"

Also from Hot Rod Magazine

"The piston and rod combination in the Coyote isn’t ideal and the oil pump gears become an issue when turning a lot of RPM, launching hard at the track, or running a supercharger. Once you start crossing the 1,000 horsepower mark, the next major issue is the block. The factory thin-wall, gray-iron sleeves are only about .062-inches thick. Combine that with a minimal amount of material separating the bores from the water jackets. The result? The piston begins to create stress on the thrust side of the bore, cracking through the thin sleeve and into the water jacket.

A stopgap was to weld in a support brace on the thrust side and deck the block, then Ford Performance came out with the Sportsman (and now the GT350) block that shored up the water jackets during the casting stage. This helps, but the factory sleeves still have their limitations. If you want to make north of 1,000 horsepower to the wheels reliably, thicker and much stronger ductile iron sleeves, like ones sold by Darton International, are a must."

Id have to say either LS or the coyote. Both make pretty good power factory and both can take a ton of boost.