Drei Porsches

I'm shopping for my 50th birthday present. It's time to own a Porsche. Being a complete cheapskate gives me an upper limit of around $12K, though I'm happier under $10K (I blame my Scottish heritage on my Mom's side, and my father pissing away his money, but that's another story......)

There are 3 cars that will fit the bill, all rear/mid engined (front engine will not work for this itch). They are of course the 911/912, the 914, and the 986 Boxster. The last is a wildcard, I think I need to consider it, but my preference is for older.

The car will be used for fair weather DD, country road cursing, weekend getaways, and track days. My fantasy is eventually vintage racing, but maybe not with this car.

For $10k you can get a very nice 914. You can find a solid 912/911, but it's probably going to need a few things. You can get very nice southern 986's for under $10k.

So tell me about the ownership/driving experience for each of these. Very interested in folks who have experience with more than one of these models. What do I need to know? A full PPI will be done on any car I buy.

Thanks

PS and guess what engine I'm doing in the basement this winter?

You should be able to find a pretty good 911 SC Targa around 10 grand. Don't buy something that needs an engine.

If I were shopping for a used Boxster, I'd be trolling the low end of the market for a higher mileage car around $8k, preferably a 2001 or newer.

Unless you really want a 912 for some reason, don't bother. A good one won't really save you any money over a 911 and it will be harder to get rid of when you're done with it. Unless you want to build a vintage racer out of it...

As always, rust and shoddy rust repair are the main enemies of the 914. Prices on these are creeping up. There were so many crappy ones available for $200 for so many years that I just can't wrap my head around the idea of spending actual money on even the best example.

Read The Used 911 Story.

I haven't owned any of them, but I've been thinking about pretty much the same question for a number of years. For that kind of budget, I think the boxster is the "easy button". It's going to be faster, handle better, and ultimately have less niggles than an older 911 or 914. Budget-wise the boxster is going to much easier to find in that range as well.

On the flip side, I'm personally less excited about the prospect of owning a boxster than I would a 911 coupe, logic be damned. A 911 in good condition with documented history is also not likely to depreciate much. Although, you may need to spend more than $12K, but you'll get more of that money back when you're ready to move on.

What are you coming from driving wise?
What kind of performance are you looking for? Do you plan to wrench on the car yourself (I see the motor rebuild comment)? Are you looking to get in and drive regularly or tinker a little?

I think these are all important questions in which one of the cars you focus on.

I agree with Woody, unless you just want a 912, I'd leave them off. The might be cheaper than early 70's 911's, but they're pretty slow, and you'd be better off with a 911SC. Besides that leaves the 912's out there for me to buy someday...

I'd also suggest finding the nicest example of each and driving them before you start shopping. I didn't drive any other cars before I bought mine (almost 10 years ago) so I didn't really have anything to compare it to when I bought it. Knowing how each drives, how well you fit, will also help determine what to look for.

And Porsches are like Pringles and Beer, you can't have just one...

I would steer clear of the 914 do to body trim and parts availability. There were a ton of small little things that mine needed doing that had just astronomical costs.

A good clean boxster is definitely in your price range and where I would go. Above you range find a clean drivers 911 and it will hold value better then anything on the above list.

I'm curious about the Boxster for the wife. How are the automatics in them? Since her stroke a stick is pretty much out of the question

Having just spent Saturday at an autocross watching a nicely-restored 914, I don't think I'd like to own one. They have grown on me over the years, but 914s always strike me as 90% of the problems of old Porsche ownership, but only 50% of the fun.

911s and 914s are appreciating. Boxsters are still depreciating. I've had a few 911s and a 914 a while back. Woody's right about the SC/3.0 version of the 911 being the most likely candidate. Targas will be cheaper than coupes. I think they make a good driver, but they will leak and the body is a little more flexy. 3.2 carreras exist in your range, but approach with caution - likely to be ready for a top end rebuild or more. 914s make me smile. My target for those would be a 73/74 2.0 engines. All were injected, many converted to carbs, most of those don't run right. Creamsickles and bumblebees (special editions) will be out of your range unless they need a lot of work. Rust below the battery box (the hell hole) and chassis rails are the enemy. Boxsters are easier to drive, faster and have higher limits, but in my mind will never be as cool as an ac porsche. Didn't talk about 912s - A DD quality older one is probably above your budget and the later ones, I just wouldn't be interested.

In reply to octavious:

I'm looking for more driving experience/fun over all out performance. The quickest car I've ever owned was probably 7.0 sec -0-60 car. I'm much more into the feel and dynamic of the car.

I plan on doing my own wrenching. There will be at least one other car to drive, so if the Porsche is down for a few days, it's not a big deal. I'm getting a lift next spring too. Yes, it's my midlife crisis in full swing.

Anyone on the board have any of these cars in the GTA that I could take a spin in for a 6 of your favorite beverage?

Wally wrote: I'm curious about the Boxster for the wife. How are the automatics in them? Since her stroke a stick is pretty much out of the question

I've never driven a Tiptronic, but I do know that they are not hard to find, have usually led easier lives, are less prone to rear main seal and countershaft issues and are cheaper. Probably not a bad wife choice. You could probably find a very nice one for not a lot of money.

Anyone considering a Boxster or Cayman should get this book first so you get a better understanding of what you can and can't do. Cliff's Notes: You can do more than you think, and for less money than you'd expect.

http://www.pelicanparts.com/catalog/shopcart/BOOK/POR_BOOK_bkptec_pg2.htm

I have the 911 in the pic. Your welcome to it if you want to come to TN.

I'd opt for a 911 of any year over the 914 then. Don't get me wrong I like the 914s, I actually go on some back roads twisties with those guys. But they aren't great performers. In my opinion, they lack the power anyone expects in a sports car. They also tend to be more prone to rust than the 911s as well. Porsche began galvinizing 911 bodies, in some say late 75, but 76 for sure, granted that doesn't deter all rust, but it helps. I don't know if the 914s were ever galvinized.

With the 914 you also get a lot of the Porsche cost with not much of the performance reward.

The Boxster will be a get in, turn the key, and drive car. It will perform better in handling, take off, and top end of the 911. But to me its just like driving any other modern convertible. Nothing makes you get in it and go "Man I love this car." There are many books out there on working on the Boxster. From what I gather it isn't a bad one to work on. But I've never turned a wrench on one.

EDIT- Woody posted the book I was thinking of.

With the 911, you get decent performance, it's not going to win any drag races if that's what your after. But the driving feel, and taking the car on some twisty roads will always put a smile on your face. You feel connected to the car and the road, whether you are driving the track, some back roads, or down to the store for a gallon of milk. They say it's a "driver's car", I don't know about all that, but I do know it is a great driving experience. Plus it has its quirkiness, but is still an easy car to work on. There are some great books out there for 911 owners, plus if you weed through the "will these wheels fit my car" threads on rennlist and pelicanparts, they both offer great sources of information on repairs and mods. I do everything I can on my car, including clutch change, motor swaps, valve adjustments, etc. The only skills I had before working on the 911 was changing the oil in my old VW bug. I'd say it is a very easy car to work on.

EDIT- There is a 101 Projects for your 911 as well. It's good (but don't do the motor drop as it suggest. Take the motor and tranny out as one unit.) Also Bruce Anderson has a 911 Performance Handbook that is good as well.

Again, I suggest you find the 3 nicest examples of each, go drive them, see what you think, and get back to us. I don't think a comparison by a bunch of internet nannies, myself included, should be the deciding factor in what car you look for. You could love the 914 and hate the Boxster and 911. You could hate the 911 and love the other two. Or you could love two and then really be in a point to decide which car is the best.

And I hate you for getting a lift. Not only do I long for one, but now that we moved I can't fit one in my garage...

A recent episode of Wheeler Dealers featured a 914. We were a bit stunned to see how much the cars apparently sell for in the UK.

IMHO, you may want to step back and think about what you want the car for. After reading your posts, it seems to me you may be better off waiting some, saving a few more pennies and getting a 911.

At least here out West (and South of you ), 10k-12k for a 911 is dangerous territory. You might be able to bag a half-decent SC for that sort of money or a 2.7S (that's the impact bumper 'S', not the earlier S - those are an order of magnitude more expensive). The 2.7S is a little gutless and the engine has basically been stretched a little too far so I'd avoid those unless very cheap and very rust free. The SC uses an engine derived from the turbo engine so it's a lot more robust, plus all SCs are galvanised so there will be less rust (please note I didn't say no rust).

After having owned a Targa (well, technically I still own it, I just can't drive it) I'm buying a coupe the next time. The wind-in-the-hair motoring is nice but the lack of water tightness wasn't, even after I had had the roof overhauled at vast expense.

The 915 gearbox is an acquired taste, treat it like the 1960s box it is and you'll be fine. Don't rush the changes and put the correct fluid in it.

Whichever 911 you go for, unless you're intimately familiar with them a PPI by a reputable shop is a must. A bad one will empty your wallet at a frightening speed and even a good one can leave interestingly sized craters in your wallet. Don't ask how I know. Mine was supposedly a good one and I had had a PPI done...

IMHO the "real" 912 (as opposed to the VW Type 4 engined, one year only model) is too much of a gamble at your price point. They're not (yet) galvanised so they rust like only 60s cars can and the engine is at least as expensive as a 911 engine to rebuild as there are fewer people out there who can do a good job and the parts are more expensive. They are not that much slower than a 911 of a similar age (there's only a 20bhp difference between the 912 and the "cooking" 911 model, plus the 912 is lighter and has better weight distribution). IMHO the only reason to buy one is because you are looking for a slightly saner way price-wise into "longhood" ownership.

Of course you can always buy a nice 912, store the engine and gearbox somewhere safe, then stick an SC engine + box in the back on 2x triple Webers. That'll sound gorgeous and as most 912s are SWB cars, it'll probably try to kill you occasionally. But that's the beginnings of an R-Gruppe car right there. And it won't fit into your budget...

Regarding your budget - I would seriously advise to up it to at least $20k if you want a good 911. That'll still "only" get you a 70s/80s one but if you buy it it wisely, you'll get a much better car.

Which reminds me, I should call a guy in Miami back about a somewhat hacked about '68.

Wally said: I'm curious about the Boxster for the wife. How are the automatics in them? Since her stroke a stick is pretty much out of the question

The only tiptronic I have driven was an 09 Boxster S with the PDK. It was super nice. Push button up and down shifts on the steering wheel were nice to play with, or throw it in D, point it in the right direction, and stomp the gas. Shift lag was non existent and that sucker would scoot. With the buttons you can delay shifts a little longer in the RPM range than the box did but it wasn't bad at all. They are not for me, but it did change my mind on automatics.

Ian F wrote: A recent episode of Wheeler Dealers featured a 914. We were a bit stunned to see how much the cars apparently sell for in the UK.

They've been expensive in the UK for a while as there aren't many left. In the UK climate, you can watch them rust and structural rust repairs on these are mega money.

I've driven a 914 with a view to buying it, even out here in the desert in needed work to the rocker panels and that 1.8 is just utterly gutless. Loads of noise, not much motion. The 2L is better, but not by much.

I'd be tempted to buy one with a good body and a dead engine, then find a 2.7L (the engine I just advised against) and stuff that one in there, creating an almost 914/6. Much more fun to drive.

Forgot to mention, I looked at a 986 Boxster S with intent last year, but after driving it to the shop to have the PPI done, I passed. Somehow I didn't like the way it felt.

I currently own a 911 Carrera 3.2 coupe and Cayman S. I love the 911, but when I first drove the Cayman, I thought I'd never need to drive the 911 again. A Cayman / Boxster is worlds apart from an air cooled 911.

A year later, I still can't part with that 911. Sometimes, you just want the old car experience, and a 911 is a fantastic old car choice. Sometimes, you just want to get into an incredibly fast car and drive. The new car is better at that. You have to decide what you want from your car.

Have you ever driven a 951? I know it is not on the list but.. .. . From your list I would get the 986

10k would get you a very very nice 951.

At the 10k price point, it'll be tough to find a good 911 - importing a 911 from the US will be subject to duty if I'm not mistaken, plus some other fees which would effectively reduce your buying power to ~$8k.

I had the same dilemma until very recently - I've been watching the market for some years, and ALWAYS wanted a 911. I ended up finding a '91 C4 for $13k in Toronto - an admittedly unusual price, but the car needs some cosmetic love and leaks some oil (they all do ;) ). Upping the budget to $15k really opens up your selection in 911's. I've seen great SC's in the US at that price point, and a few 964's.

I'm in Hamilton - you're welcome to come by and drive the 964 in the spring if you're still looking. (It's not insured for road use at the moment.)

I LOVE the 964 - quirky, well built, and a true joy to drive. I grin whenever I'm behind the wheel....

Guys, thanks for the feedback. Yes, my original thought was spending closer to $15k. But then cheapness reared its ugly head and I thought maybe, just maybe, I could push it down a bit.

Ian, no fair going back to my previous posts about my car expectations . You are more than likely correct, but still no fair.

Njansenv, good point about bringing a car up from the states. The other thing I've noticed is that US cars tend to be higher mileage than comparable Canadian cars (i.e. US car with have 150k Miles, Canadian car with have 150k km, same year, more or less same price). Finding a local car or even going out west might be better and I wouldn't have to deal with the paperwork/fees.

I wouldn't worry too much about the higher mileage as long as the car has been looked after properly. At least the 911s I am familiar with do not like to stand around unused for any length of time so unless you're looking at a really worn car, higher mileage cars might cause fewer problems.

Woody wrote:

Wally wrote: I'm curious about the Boxster for the wife. How are the automatics in them? Since her stroke a stick is pretty much out of the question

I've never driven a Tiptronic, but I do know that they are not hard to find, have usually led easier lives, are less prone to rear main seal and countershaft issues and are cheaper. Probably not a bad wife choice. You could probably find a *very* nice one for not a lot of money.

Mine was an 01 S with tiptronic. I enjoyed it a lot but I bought it when it was newish and someone came along and bought it from me for more than I paid so I sold it. Shifts are pretty precise, not good enough to autocross but good enough to drive spiritedly.

UPDATE: Going with the 911, that's what I've always wanted, so it would be foolish to go with anything else (there is an amazing deal on a 2001 Boxster S in NJ on Pelican if anyone is interested).

The goal now is to stay under $15k. I'm seeing several late 70's cars in the $11-13K price range that have extensive history and seem like they might be good deals. When did they stop the 2.7 engine? Is that really a deal killer or is it OK if it's been rebuilt with the stud fix?

Thanks.

I'd skip the 2.7 engine for the simple reason that it's about as expensive to rebuild if/when it break as all the other ones, but not very powerful. Dark days of emissions and all that.

Either that or budget for swapping in a 3.0 from an SC for more power and reliability.