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OldGray320i
OldGray320i HalfDork
4/9/16 5:04 p.m.

Clutch pedal feels fine, car goes in to gear, but let the clutch pedal out and the car does not really move - have we lost the clutch disc, or ? No funky noises at all, everything feels "normal" but it's like the plate is not clamping on the disc to turn the gears.

It's been years since I've actually had a clutch wear out, and that clutch hasn't got that many miles on it (probably no more than 35k miles at most).

The daughter has driven the car the last few years, but she's well accomplished at driving a manual, does not use excessive clutch slip to move the car.

Thoughts?

Robbie
Robbie GRM+ Memberand SuperDork
4/9/16 5:26 p.m.

Sounds like a worn out clutch to me.

I guess check to make sure there is free play at the top of the pedal to make sure nothing is preventing the pedal from coming all the way up, but other than that I don't have any good ideas.

HappyAndy
HappyAndy UberDork
4/9/16 5:27 p.m.

How old is the clutch? On my Datsun pickup the diaphragm spring in the pressure plate lost all its springiness from old age. When I took it out the disk still had plenty of meat left on it.

carzan
carzan Dork
4/9/16 6:55 p.m.
HappyAndy wrote: How old is the clutch? On my Datsun pickup the diaphragm spring in the pressure plate lost all its springiness from old age. When I took it out the disk still had plenty of meat left on it.

I had a Spitfire do that and when I pulled the clutch, the diaphragm spring had a big ol' crack in it.

outasite
outasite Reader
4/9/16 7:48 p.m.

Went to buy an late 70s Subaru fwd in mid 80s that I was told needed a clutch. Started car, engaged 1st gear, absolutely nothing, opened hood and told son to operate clutch and transmission. Noticed left frt axle was turning inside hub, bought car, replaced hub and axle, sold car. Went to buy a 69 MGB in mid 70s that I was told needed a transmission, clutch had just been replaced, tried clutch and transmission, no movement but could hear gears rotating, looked under car, frt driveshaft bolts missing, could not take advantage of young owner, told him cause and went home.

Think outside the box, you never know

OldGray320i
OldGray320i HalfDork
4/9/16 11:24 p.m.

In reply to HappyAndy:

Only a few years and not that many miles old (like 4-5 and 30-35K miles). Pedal pressure is still "normal" so the PP should be fine.

It's going to be a bummer if that disk has slipped, but I'll check the pedal adjustment on it, there's not much to adjust on these things if I recall correctly....

Knurled
Knurled GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
4/10/16 12:51 a.m.

When I broke a CV joint in my Golf, it made no weird noises. Didn't even tear the boot, axle stick just spun inside the boot.

It's still probably the clutch disk though. I have seen them go from slipping lightly to zero engagement at all in one drive. The clutch heats up while it slips, expanding and adding some grip but still slipping. Then when it cools back down you have nothing.

An easy way to check if it's the disk or not is to try shifting into various gears without depressing the pedal, with the engine running. If the clutch is good, you'll get gear clash or synchro resistance. And try ALL of the gears. Normally a broken trans sounds like a blender full of metal but I have experienced breakage that resulted in no unusual noises at all, just a new neutral. This includes the unput shaft's gear, which if it strips will leave you with nothing but 4th gear (or 5th for a dogleg trans).

ddavidv
ddavidv PowerDork
4/10/16 6:36 a.m.

Rubber guibo on the driveshaft?

iceracer
iceracer PowerDork
4/10/16 11:57 a.m.

Lining came off one side.

Center of the disc broke.

broken axle

JBasham
JBasham New Reader
4/11/16 12:10 p.m.

Getrag 240, 245, or 260? M20B25? God, it's hard to unbolt it from those M20B25s. I would bleed the clutch, just because I would be desperate to avoid anything that involved unbolting the trans.

If the slave cylinder was totally puked, I would expect to be able to feel that. But I would change that next anyway, because I would still be desperate to avoid anything that involved unbolting the trans. Maybe you're lucky, and it's just a problem with the hydraulics being too weak to push the clutch fork forward.

I might even jack up the rear from the center of the subframe with the transmission in neutral and see if the half-shafts and differential were spinning ok.

Everything else I can think of is a take-the-tranny-off-the-motor diagnostic.

One man I met at the track had done a rebuild of his motor and reinstalled the transmission with a new clutch, but he didn't replace the output shaft seal. A short time later his output shaft seal got really leaky and his clutch was too lubed to engage.

But I had one with a drivable output shaft seal leak for a few years, and the clutch was fine, and there was enough oil leaking out of the bell housing junction that we all knew the seal was leaking. So I would expect you would have already seen spatters on the driveway if that was the problem.

Maybe call Andrew at DriveGear Racing. He rebuilds Getrags, and runs a Spec E30 race rental program. He has witnessed every kind of E30 325i Getrag issue known to mankind.

OldGray320i
OldGray320i HalfDork
4/11/16 12:45 p.m.

In reply to JBasham:

Yeah, pretty much want to avoid any unbolting of the trans to diagnose/repair - especially as the daughter has otherwise trashed this once reasonably nice vehicle. With e30's becoming "rarer" I think of reclaiming it if/as she moves on, but, I digress.

When in gear, with the clutch out, it feels like it wants to move, but doesn't go anywhere. Both axles have been replaced in recent months, so I doubt it's that.

Pretty sure the disc is gone, but hope its air in the system or a bad slave - except that a bad slave wouldn't allow it to go in to gear, right? Goes in to gear easy...

I was going to look at it yesterday, but the car is in front of her friends house, and it rained most of the day.

JBasham
JBasham New Reader
4/11/16 1:13 p.m.

I should know that off the top of my head from personal experience. I will try to remember to check it when I get home. But I think the synchros would probably let you do that when the motor isn't turning the input shaft.

Tyler H
Tyler H GRM+ Memberand SuperDork
4/11/16 2:33 p.m.

When you put in reverse, do the back up lights come on? Quick check to see if the shift linkage came off. I would also look at the slave and see if it moves when someone presses the pedal. If the clutch failure mode is that it is not disengaging, it should not want to go in any gear while running. If it fails engaged, it should want to move when you try to start it in gear.

I would think broken axle or guibo before the gearbox spontaneously died. They're pretty tough boxes in my experience.

outasite
outasite Reader
4/11/16 2:54 p.m.

Did daughter allow boy friend to drive/abuse car?

OldGray320i
OldGray320i HalfDork
4/11/16 3:04 p.m.

In reply to outasite:

I know she's tried to teach the bf - that is a possibility.

With it rowing through the gears just fine and a "sluggish want to move but don't" feel, a worn out disc is feeling like a real possibility...

Ugh.

outasite
outasite Reader
4/11/16 3:15 p.m.

In reply to OldGray320i:

I agree

JBasham
JBasham New Reader
4/11/16 5:06 p.m.

Could also be the pressure plate is worn out and just won't snug up the disc to the flywheel any more. Usually the disc goes first. But sometimes a pressure plate gets re-used.

I have also heard old wives' tales around the auto parts store about clutches getting wiped out during a push-start trying to use first gear. But I've never known anybody it happened to.

An efffed up throwout bearing can result in the pressure plate not being fully disengaged during gear changes, resulting in a little clutch drag during every shift that can shorten a clutch plate's life.

All in all, hope it's the hydraulics. Otherwise, what I usually do is replace it all -- output shaft seal, clutch, pressure plate, resurface flywheel and use new flywheel bolts, throwout bearing, pivot bearing, fork spring, everything in there but the fork. It's extra money for parts but worth avoiding the misery of doing it multiple times. Pelican Parts has an excellent DIY with photos (I can't remember if it's for an E36 but if it is, it works just fine for E30's too, because that's what I have used it for).

OldGray320i
OldGray320i HalfDork
4/11/16 7:07 p.m.

The failure was sudden, no problems getting the car going before it happened. No loud noises or pops. The bf apparently picked it up like a natural after stalling the car a couple times.

This is clearly a case of the PP not clamping on the disk, so something is keeping the PP "up" (or, in spite of everything, the disk is gone...).

Won't know more until I can get under the car, though, and that's going to be probably this weekend.

jmthunderbirdturbo
jmthunderbirdturbo HalfDork
4/11/16 8:13 p.m.

my brother thought the trans had failed in his panther squad car. turned out the rear end had IMPRESSIVELY and SPECTACULARLY failed, without any noise or warning.

-J0N

Karacticus
Karacticus GRM+ Memberand HalfDork
4/11/16 9:03 p.m.

Long time ago, had an axle pop out of the diff on a Spitfire as I backed out of the garage.

No warning, wouldn't move after, but the speedometer would register as the driveshaft spun!

OldGray320i
OldGray320i HalfDork
4/11/16 11:16 p.m.

Update, so the daughter says there was a loud pop right before it stopped.

That's a trans pull to diagnose, but I'm thinking PP problem given how the car reacts.

Antihero
Antihero GRM+ Memberand New Reader
4/11/16 11:25 p.m.

Loud pop sounds like an axle problem imo

JBasham
JBasham New Reader
4/12/16 9:12 a.m.

Okay, I checked my car this morning. A Getrag 260 will shift fine with the motor off and the clutch pedal all the way up (full application of the pressure plate). Won't do it with the motor running.

Good luck with those (expletive deleted) tranny bolts by the firewall.

Tyler H
Tyler H GRM+ Memberand SuperDork
4/12/16 9:16 a.m.
Antihero wrote: Loud pop sounds like an axle problem imo

I'm still on the outside saying guibo or a busted axle.

iceracer
iceracer PowerDork
4/12/16 10:06 a.m.

Spider gears gone.

Start from the back and work forward.

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