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SlickDizzy
SlickDizzy GRM+ Memberand SuperDork
9/20/10 8:37 p.m.

So, in my daily driver shopping, I have found one pretty nice 325is, two incredibly nice XR4tis, and one XR4ti that is pretty nice but has a TON of spare parts.

E30: http://greenbay.craigslist.org/cto/1893246405.html Runs and drives great. As of last weekend the racing seats and harnesses have been ditched for a decent cardinal red interior. It has a lot of nice stuff done to it, but the black-on-black-on-black-on-black thing is kind of lame and the owner has NO IDEA when the timing belt was last done.

XR4tis: http://appleton.craigslist.org/cto/1957524647.html (cleanest, seems very well maintained) http://madison.craigslist.org/cto/1952962054.html (closest, tons of extras) http://chicago.craigslist.org/sox/cto/1951337711.html (nice color, 72xxx miles!)

The main thing that is influencing me is that while I talked the guy with the E30 down to $2500, it will immediately need the black stuff replaced ($300-ish in parts and a lot of my time) and a timing belt (cheap-ish but a LOT of my time). The Merkurs are all seemingly ready to rock, less likely to get stolen, and I'm looking at spending quite a bit less (= more mod money). Also, the red one is just plain ridiculously clean for the price.

Opinions? I am looking for a part-time DD/occasional track car in this deal. I love E30's as much as the next guy, but I have been greatly struggling to find an unmolested one, and the owner's answer of "timing belt? huh?" kind of scares me considering it is due for one RIGHT NOW with the mileage it has. Also, I have been down the BMW road, but never the 2.3T road.

Toyman01
Toyman01 GRM+ Memberand SuperDork
9/20/10 8:50 p.m.

Different is good. I'd go with the XR4Ti just cause. Then again I have wanted one of them since high school so I'm biased.

ditchdigger
ditchdigger HalfDork
9/20/10 9:08 p.m.

The second E30 that is already intercooled is what I would lean to but that is because I already had one that looked exactly like the red one.

tlcff8
tlcff8 New Reader
9/20/10 9:23 p.m.

Do you live in Appleton? I could go look at the XR4ti for you since I do live in Appleton

SlickDizzy
SlickDizzy GRM+ Memberand SuperDork
9/20/10 9:36 p.m.

tlcff8, I live in Milwaukee. If you'd do that for me, I'll buy you the beer of your choice when I come get the car! Appleton isn't totally out of the way, but it's far enough for me to show up intending to buy it if I go look at it. The fact that the interior looks clean enough to eat a meal on definitely gives me a good vibe about it.

Raze
Raze Dork
9/20/10 9:47 p.m.

In reply to SlickDizzy:

Well I can't speak about the E30 having never owned one, but they are pretty sweet looking now later in life IMO. I know there is a huge following and parts are relatively easy to come by even now (correct me if I'm wrong here).

Now for Merkur time: That first 87 looks like a decent deal if it's stock as it looks (there's no intercooler it so that may mean it's been unmolested). It doesn't say anything about the A/C system, new shocks and struts are cool, ask what brand, KYBs are common cheap replacements, if they're Koni yellows or something silly they'd literally be worth 1/3 of the price of what he's asking.

Second XR on the list has an intercooler and has a miss, if he's replaced the whole ignition system including a new TFI module, dizzy, wires, plugs, and it's still got a miss it's suspect. The fact that he's got a spare set of injectors and hasn't botherd to do a simple resistance test on the ones in there makes me wonder if he's covering a burnt valve or other problem that's just alot of hassle.

Third XR seems decent as well cept the A/C.

Now for Merkur specific parts there are people who sell parts, Rapido, BAT, MerkurMidwest, MC2Racing, then the enthusiast community part them our regularly or have spares.

As for the Merkur itself:

Suspension, interesting design, full independent all around, once you see the front sway bar which acts as the second leg of the A-arm you'll appreciate how clever it is, that being said, no camber adjustment makes lowering more challenging (read requires modifications). The rear suspension is hard to describe, you have to see to understand, but it's all relatively simple to deal with.

Brakes: front discs, single pot caliper, rear drums, simple, effective, easy to upgrade, just need bigger rims

Wheels: 14" stock 'phone dials' suck, get rid of them, later 15" 'spatulas' are better, but finding once with the correct offset that won't rub is where it gets tough, but if you don't mind rolling fenders or removing inner splash guards, etc the sky's the limit. You can fit VERY big tires under the car with the right offset and backspacing, especially if you convert front struts to coilovers, see MC2Racing for inspiration.

Transmission: T9, sloppy, 2 piece drive shaft, guibo, if well kept they're servicable units with decent lifespan, if abused or put behind a lot of power won't last long, luckily a T5 swap is simple, easy, and converting to a single piece driveshaft is also a nice change (increases body vibration) you just need an adapter to the diff, 460Machine.com.

Diff: stock is open, suck. Luckily swapping in an Eaton, Supra, etc have been done and kits are available, see MC2Racing

Engine: Probably the most fun reason to get an XR4, many people will say the 2.3T is past it's prime and isn't worth anything, well it's an Iron block, Iron SOHC head 4 banger factory turbo'd from the 80s, of course it's past it's prime, it's also cheap and easy to mod, takes huge abuse, and is obscenely simple (non-interference). Stock longblocks can make big power, not as big as a 5.0 but a turbo's a turbo's a turbo.

Fuel System: craptastic 2 pump system (in tank + in line) replace with singe high pressure in-tank, injectors are 35#/hr 'brown tops' 200-250WHP is doable on them, upgrading injectors is easy and not terribly expensive and opens up as much as your motor can do, you can idle and drive nice with huge injectors on these motors, we have 75#/hr and have no problems, people say you have to run over 120#/hrs before you start having problems...fuel tanks like to rust, can mod a newer mustang to fit

EFI: GOD I HATE TFI, but when it works it works good, when it doesn't well, you learn what to check, what tools and spares to carry, and how to diagnose it on the fly. Dizzy + TFI module = spark, computers can be swapped out, repinned between SVOs, TurboCoupes, etc, some can be chipped, or you can open up potential with a MegaSquirt

Intake: 4 single long intake runners, upper and lower, gut upper, port lower, your engine will thank you

Exhaust: Cast iron log header to T3 flange (make sure the support bracket is around or you will crack the header) Oh, bigger is better here, 3" is the way to go, though you'll have to step up turbos to make use of a monster exhaust like that.

Turbo: T3 (can't remember the A/R) but they can be swapped, hybridized, across XR4s, SVOs, TurboCoupes. You can also do crazy things like put Holsets on them for crazy boost we've had ours over 30psi, T3s usually top out around 18-20psi (15 is stock for a manual trans car). Get a manual boost controller and turn it up, computer and injectors can handle it, but you gotta watch it

Headgaskets: you will pop one if you turn it up, don't fret, just know it's going to happen, then when it does you won't be upset.

Intercooler: stock there isn't one, add one if you turn up the boost, those two mods can literally take you over 200WHP and cost under $200 depending where you source your IC and piping, couplers and clamps (tbolts from ebay + Semi Truck Heater Hose makes great cheap couplers)

Battery/Wiring: You're on your own here, know that 80s wiring from Germany sucks, period, having a battery sit 3" above a hot turbo/downpipe isn't exactly the smartest choice, relocate it, watch out for bad connectors, chaffed wiring, bad insulation, etc, and REPLACE IT ASAP unless you like Carbeque

Interrior: Can't help you, I've never seen a real interrior of an XR4 except in pictures, ours came stripped

I wish you luck, oh and if you want to know more about XR4s go to TurboFord, MerkurSport, MerkurClub, MerkurEncyclopedia, just be warned, you may get the bug if you read to far into a 2.3T powered rig, I know I did, can you tell?

Javelin
Javelin GRM+ Memberand SuperDork
9/20/10 9:48 p.m.

The XR4Ti is one of those cars that was so awesome in it's home market, but we got shafted on. Been there, done that. Realize it weighs a lot more than the E30 (~3400 IIRC) and only makes 170HP.

The answer here is neither.

Raze
Raze Dork
9/20/10 9:55 p.m.
Javelin wrote: The XR4Ti is one of those cars that was so awesome in it's home market, but we got shafted on. Been there, done that. Realize it weighs a lot more than the E30 (~3400 IIRC) and only makes 170HP. The answer here is neither.

You don't recall correctly, XR4Ti curb weight is 2920lbs

SlickDizzy
SlickDizzy GRM+ Memberand SuperDork
9/20/10 10:00 p.m.
Javelin wrote: The XR4Ti is one of those cars that was so awesome in it's home market, but we got shafted on. Been there, done that. Realize it weighs a lot more than the E30 (~3400 IIRC) and only makes 170HP. The answer here is neither.

I am going to straight up call BS on the 3400lb thing, contemporary auto mags list the curb weight at ~2900 (heavier than an E30, but not THAT MUCH).

I also NEED a new driver ASAP, my swapped Brat has been limping around to work and back with a blow'd up 4th gear and two axles near the end of their lifespan. I am not afraid of a car that needs consistent maintenance, as long as it's not "sudden random expensive catastrophic failure" maintenance, which is why I'm ignoring a certain gorgeous Alfa Milano in Chicago.

That being said, please continue with opinions. I do always have the option to fly away and get the nicest Peugeot 405 Mi16 in the country for a similar price, which is honestly what I really really want, but if Merkur parts availability is "bad," you've never owned a French car...

Travis_K
Travis_K Dork
9/20/10 10:19 p.m.

Why again are you ignoring the milano? One that runs and drives (and doesnt need a clutch or windsheild) would be a way better car than either of those unless you are looking for over 200hp easily. Timing belt job on them is easy, and as long as you do it right they wont fail.

m4ff3w
m4ff3w GRM+ Memberand SuperDork
9/20/10 10:24 p.m.

I've had all 3 (though my e30 was a ETA) and the Milano wins hand's down.

The XR4ti, while having the most power, was just dull. Which greatly saddened me, as I wanted a XRati since I first learned about them in 1997.

The e30 was nice, but everyone has an e30. And I'm not one that wants what everyone else has.

The Milano is just straight out fun.

SlickDizzy
SlickDizzy GRM+ Memberand SuperDork
9/20/10 10:46 p.m.
Travis_K wrote: Why again are you ignoring the milano? One that runs and drives (and doesnt need a clutch or windsheild) would be a way better car than either of those unless you are looking for over 200hp easily. Timing belt job on them is easy, and as long as you do it right they wont fail.

It is gorgeous in every way and has had all the maintenance done.

Except the clutch, which the seller is very clear about it needing :/

http://chicago.craigslist.org/wcl/cto/1957469628.html

m4ff3w
m4ff3w GRM+ Memberand SuperDork
9/20/10 11:02 p.m.

The clutch job wasn't nearly as bad as I was expecting. Though my Milano did come w/a spare assembly.

toad9977
toad9977 New Reader
9/20/10 11:39 p.m.

Just to let you know that the e30 on craigs is pretty rough. Checked it out last month and about every body panel needs some attention, dents and bad paint, but no rust at least. Runs and drives good though, which is always a plus. Something that might make the e30 a real sweet deal is, when I was looking at it the owner mentioned that he was going to throw in an m30b235 which could make for a pretty sweet swap.

Travis_K
Travis_K Dork
9/21/10 12:28 a.m.

Call up APE and see what they charge for a good used clutch assembly. Shipping would be a bit, but its not that hard to change one, they are just very expensive new. Its actually far simpler than almost any other car. lol

Luke
Luke SuperDork
9/21/10 1:54 a.m.

The Pug 405 T-belt is also a monumental PITA-job. At least, it was on my turbo-diesel. I assume the Mi16 engine is no more accessible.

As another suggestion, (since you're looking at Milanos), you might also consider a 164.

ddavidv
ddavidv SuperDork
9/21/10 5:43 a.m.

The E30 is second to none in parts availability. All these other wacky choices, as interesting as they may be, are going to be much more of a challenge. If you think Ford carries squat for the Merkur that doesn't fit 14 other models, think again.

I always liked the XR4ti but passed on buying one because of the questionable parts and build quality. That was over 10 years ago. Can't imagine it's not far worse now.

Giant Purple Snorklewacker
Giant Purple Snorklewacker SuperDork
9/21/10 6:05 a.m.

I read all that positive info on the Merkur and thought "Buy the E30". Timing belts take 2hrs & cost $14. The black stuff - yeah, its a pain but Merkurs have rubber bushings too, right?.

wcelliot
wcelliot Reader
9/21/10 7:55 a.m.

My take is that the Merkur would be by far the more fun toy, but there are few cars from that era I'd want to actually try to daily drive... and the E30 wins that contest hands down.

For the past 7 years my wife has been commuting 1.5 hours (or more) into downtown DC and usually 1.5-2 hours back 5 days a week... in a lowered 1990 E30 conv (actually two of them... I modified the first one so far it would neither pass emissions nor behave itself in traffic, so we sold it and started over with another one with a stock drivetrain, but similar suspension mods).

This is of her own choosing... she refused to consider upgrading to my former E36M3 or my current M Roadster. The only other car she's expressed an interest in daily driving is a Porsche Boxster.

In 7 years and over 150k driving nearly 20 year old cars she's had one breakdown that required towing (water pump)... I'd call that a pretty good record for an old daily driver...

Bill

m4ff3w
m4ff3w GRM+ Memberand SuperDork
9/21/10 7:56 a.m.
Luke wrote: As another suggestion, (since you're looking at Milanos), you might also consider a 164.

It really is a shame the 164 is WWD.

m4ff3w
m4ff3w GRM+ Memberand SuperDork
9/21/10 7:56 a.m.
Luke wrote: As another suggestion, (since you're looking at Milanos), you might also consider a 164.

It really is a shame the 164 is WWD.

Raze
Raze Dork
9/21/10 8:01 a.m.
SlickDizzy wrote: That being said, please continue with opinions. I do always have the option to fly away and get the nicest Peugeot 405 Mi16 in the country for a similar price, which is honestly what I really really want, but if Merkur parts availability is "bad," you've never owned a French car...

You and I sir share the same taste for cars, a 405 Mi16? God I've been lusting after that car for over a decade...

Parts availability for an XR4 isn't bad at all for engine, turbo, suspension, brakes. Really the only thing that gets tough are stock electronics, but they're readily available used online, if you need parts, all following are good places (besides the big parts stores):

turboford, merkurclub, merkursport, Rapido, BAT, OPMD, MC2Racing, MerkurMidwest

That being said, and Alfa or a Fiat would make a cooler ride

81gtv6
81gtv6 GRM+ Memberand Dork
9/21/10 10:12 a.m.

Of everything you have shown I would go with the Milano. You can get the clutch disks redone without haveing to get a new assembly as long as everything else is good to go.

Put me in the camp of wanting a Mi 16 VERY badly.

Raze
Raze Dork
9/21/10 10:22 a.m.

Peugot 405 mi16 in Cali, can't get it passed smog, said he bought for $1400 last year, might be able to pick it up cheap: http://mendocino.craigslist.org/cto/1959011954.html

Travis_K
Travis_K Dork
9/21/10 11:06 a.m.

I think a 164 woud be way too hard to work on becasue of the engine orientation. I pulled the engine out of one in the junkyard becasue i want to eventually do a 3.0 swap in my milano and the engine was very cheap. It was a huge job to take it out though.

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