E36 Eurospec M3 vs E46 M3

Hello All,

the time has come for me to sell my Elise -- I'd like to free up cash for more Chump Car, more motorcycles, and a truck and trailer. Having said that, I still have need for an HPDE car that is faster than my beloved Miata.

I am currently thinking about a "Eurospec" E36 M3 (45 were sold in Canada in 1994 and they have a true "M" motor) or an E46 M3. Prices are similar. I know E36s (I have a US spec M3 as a DD) -- but not much about the E46s. Power levels are similar between the two cars, but I suspect the E36 is lighter. Obviously there is a significant difference in age.

Thoughts?

Rob

Is the Eurospec worth it? vs just doing something to a norma e36? I'd go with whichever car you can find in the best shape for the money you want to spend

The euro M3 is great but the S54 in the E46 M3 is better. So, no, it's not worth it anymore. If you love the E36 more than the E46 - swap the S54 in. It actually costs the same or less than the old euro swap and the motor itself is pretty common so you can always find parts in the good ol USA.

+1 on what GPS said.

Giant Purple Snorklewacker wrote: The euro M3 is great but the S54 in the E46 M3 is better. So, no, it's not worth it anymore. If you love the E36 more than the E46 - swap the S54 in. It actually costs the same or less than the old euro swap and the motor itself is pretty common so you can always find parts in the good ol USA.

EDIT: Save a few $ and keep the ZF 5 speed from the E36 - it bolts right up to the S54 and is more than capable of handling the increased load. On track you will never ever hit 6th gear even with a 4.10 rear diff. You won't miss it on the street either.

In reply to Giant Purple Snorklewacker:

I am curious about this swap myself, but everything on the bmw forums say the wiring is near impossilbe. Stand alone solution is $2500. Do you know anyway around it?

I'm doing this from memory, and these may have been solved long ago, but back when the development work was being done on the E46 M3 to turn into a track car, it had some issues. The biggest was it would go into limp mode if you came on and off the throttle too hard. We had to pull the fuse mid race to reset it, very disconcerting. It also had issues making the transmission last, and the motor was more fragile as well.

By comparison, the E36 was a train. It had none of the issues of the E46. That was quite a few years ago and the problems may have been solved, but on a street car that you turn into a track car, you will have to address them.

Jarod wrote: In reply to Giant Purple Snorklewacker: I am curious about this swap myself, but everything on the bmw forums say the wiring is near impossilbe. Stand alone solution is $2500. Do you know anyway around it?

The way around it is hard but it's been done. Google BMW S54 megasquirt

Bottom line though is that a euro swap is a $7-$10k deal by the time you buy, ship and install the motor. The S54 is $3.5 - $4k for a motor and $3k for a plug-n-play from bimmerworld. So... same or cheaper at the easiest possible method. Put some more work in and you can use a the $1800 standalone from company X or put even more in and megasquirt3 it for maximum self satisfaction and low cash layout. All of the above have been done to success thus far.

I am not sure which of these I'd choose were I you - but I can tell you I am shopping for a deal on a nice clean S54 to drop in my E30 and I have an MS assembled for a straight six with individual coil packs laying on my bench

The MS you have assembled able to controll the vanos?

I also thought those early 94 E36 M3 Euro's only had 286hp, not the typical 321hp, so they'd be significantly down on power vs a S54 motor.

I never had any issues with the transmission in my E46 M3. The car can also fit much wider tires than an E36...

GPS,

thanks for the insight -- can you clarify why the S54 is a better motor than the S52?

Either way seem like a win-win . . . .

Rob

240hp vs 333hp.

z31maniac wrote: 240hp vs 333hp.

Nope -- the Eurospec car has a different engine that other NA M3s. ITBs, etc -- 282 hp versus 240.

Sia over on the mye28 board swapped an S54 engine and transmission into an e28 5 series car...I'd love to have this thing: http://www.mye28.com/viewtopic.php?t=108450

ZOO wrote: GPS, thanks for the insight -- can you clarify why the S54 is a better motor than the S52? Either way seem like a win-win . . . . Rob

The S54 is an evolution of the euro motor and a true racing bred masterpiece of the same vein as the S14, S38, & S50B32.

Aluminum block, 8000 RPM redline, 333hp 310 ft/lbs in bone stock form - the $3k bimmerworld standalone makes more than that with just the tune. I am racing against guys making 400/365 whp/tq out of them (by adding cubic dollars). The S52 is a great lump but just not in the same league. It was a cost cutting measure for the US M3. It is fine for what it is but it is very expensive to build an S52 to the same level as a bone stock S54 and you end up with a high strung 100hr motor for your troubles.

Were I not trying to compete in a MOD class and just "juicing up" a street E30 or non-M e36... S52 + cams all the way for cost reasons. Or... just drive an E46 M3. There are worse cars :)

Jarod wrote: The MS you have assembled able to controll the vanos?

MS3 is capable of dual vanos and sequential firing according to Matt from DIY Autotune - but I am planning a racing motor that will delete the variable timing altogether as I will never drop below 4k with an 8k redline. I will also fab up a throttle cable in place of the TBW.

I am also not settled on any true plan - I had the MS from a previous project so I'll try it first before wadding out extra cash. Failing that - the answer is really easy - paying for it isn't.

Giant Purple Snorklewacker wrote:

ZOO wrote: GPS, thanks for the insight -- can you clarify why the S54 is a better motor than the S52? Either way seem like a win-win . . . . Rob

The S54 is an evolution of the euro motor and a true racing bred masterpiece of the same vein as the S14, S38, & S50B32. Aluminum block, 8000 RPM redline, 333hp 310 ft/lbs in bone stock form - the $3k bimmerworld standalone makes more than that with just the tune. I am racing against guys making 400/365 whp/tq out of them (by adding cubic dollars). The S52 is a great lump but just not in the same league. It was a cost cutting measure for the US M3. It is fine for what it is but it is very expensive to build an S52 to the same level as a bone stock S54 and you end up with a high strung 100hr motor for your troubles. Were I not trying to compete in a MOD class and just "juicing up" a street E30 or non-M e36... S52 + cams all the way for cost reasons. Or... just drive an E46 M3. There are worse cars :)

Ah -- the Eurospec CDN cars have the S50B32 . . . so win-win either way.

If I were in your shoes, I'd look at it from a "How much will it be worth when I go to sell it" perspective.......I'll bet due to rarity the eurospec e36 will hold value better, but I think the E46 would be a better HPDE car(mainly due to tires, s54, etc.)

ZOO wrote: the time has come for me to sell my Elise -- I'd like to free up cash for a rally car, and a truck and trailer.

I think you typed something incorrectly, because your initial post made no sense whatsoever. Fixed it for ya

Nope, still not comprehending the first sentence. My inclination would be e46m3 - since it sounds like you want to spend your time doing other stuff rather than wrenching.

Winston wrote:

ZOO wrote: the time has come for me to sell my Elise -- I'd like to free up cash for a rally car, and a truck and trailer.

I think you typed something incorrectly, because your initial post made no sense whatsoever. Fixed it for ya

Ha ha ha -- the sentiment is there. Too much money in the Elise limits my options. Freeing up the cash, and getting a truck and trailer opens many more doors in motorsports!

oldtin wrote: Nope, still not comprehending the first sentence. My inclination would be e46m3 - since it sounds like you want to spend your time doing other stuff rather than wrenching.

I like to "maintenance" wrenching -- and upgrades of that sort. Outright fabrication and rebuilding is out of my "time" zone -- way tooo many other things on my plate.

Rob

I would go with the euro M3 E36 for the reasons you explained.. similar power, lighter weight, and a simpler car than the E46. In the days of the internet, getting euro parts is not all that much harder than going to pelican

Winston wrote:

ZOO wrote: the time has come for me to sell my Elise -- I'd like to free up cash for a rally car, and a truck and trailer.

I think you typed something incorrectly, because your initial post made no sense whatsoever. Fixed it for ya

E36 M3s are the coming thing for rally cars. Cage, struts/shocks. and brakes that fit under 15" wheels.

Hello, I just joined yesterday after Googling "M3 S-54 swap into E-92 328i" and this thread popped up.

I have an E-92 coupe that I built as a track car.

The car handles beautifully in the bends, but has no pull in a straight line. This is partly because I removed the stock steering wheel and OEM seat belts; now every error code flashes for seat belts, air bags, DCT, ABS, Engine Light etc.

I scan and reset, but as soon as I accelerate or touch the brakes the errors come back on. So, I've decided to remove the engine and install a S-54.

If anyone has done a similar swap, can you shed some light on the problems associated with the ECU, DME?

Do I need a stand alone ECU? Will stock gauges still work, or do I need an AIM or Race-Pak DAI or dash? Can I use my existing wire harness, ECU, starter, key, and ODB-2 sensors?

Thanks Tambry Oo=[][]=oO