1 2
ebonyandivory
ebonyandivory UltraDork
2/28/17 4:32 p.m.

Head-to-head for daily driver duty. Both gas, both manuals. Nothing but enjoyable transportation and being a drivable project car. Large family type budget i.e.: not a huge one.

And... GO!

Ransom
Ransom GRM+ Memberand PowerDork
2/28/17 4:50 p.m.

I like a VW, but that golf has half the appeal of the E46 for me.

That said, IIRC an E46 wagon was giving the highly capable Mr Burrito fits in time and money trying to keep it as a DD. I'm not sure the MkIV would be better on that front.

I say if you have an actual preference for what to walk out the door and get into, do that one.

Jumper K. Balls
Jumper K. Balls UberDork
2/28/17 4:51 p.m.

I am the outlier on the graph but both of my MK4 VW 1.8t cars were reliable and did NOT smell of crayons. As soon as the 2001 got the final COP recall in 2011 or so it was flawless. The 2003 5spd Wagon was perfect for the 60K I had it.

The ABS and traction control on those old VW's was so much better than the wifes 2012 Kia that I find it unbelievable that Kia let them out the door.

I have not had an E46 yet, however I have watched everybody I know with them rebuild entire cooling systems. I prefer the BMW driving experience, but the VW's are a hoot.

Duke
Duke MegaDork
3/1/17 8:13 a.m.

I have a 2003 325i sport package manual sedan. It's an absolutely excellent daily driver for my 25-mile round trip commute. Comfortable for 4 adults. Not made of power, but ample, and it's torquey enough that you never have to struggle with shifting a lot. In mostly-suburban mixed driving I get 25 mpg like clockwork and that goes up a few if I take a couple long trips on a tank.

I bought it in 2006 as a CPO lease return with 25,000 miles on it. Since then I have put 100,000 more miles on it with nothing but semi-regular oil changes, 3 sets of tires, 1 set of pads and rotors all around, 1 wheel bearing, 1 window regulator, and 1 window switch. It's even done a dozen or more autocrosses.

Still on the original clutch, struts, and control arms, all of which feel fine for daily driving. If I was trying to be very sporty I'd probably refresh the undercarriage, but it's fine for spirited backroad tooling.

It's due for the typical BMW coolant system refresh, and the headliner and pillars need to be redone. That's it. I'm planning on spending a kilobuck on it this year, and driving it for probably 4 more years / 35,000 miles.

ebonyandivory
ebonyandivory UltraDork
3/1/17 9:22 a.m.

It FEELS with the BMW, you know what you're getting as far as cooling system and bushing replacement. You know what they're gonna need and usually when they need it.

It FEELS like the Golf is going to disappoint you in maddening and surprising ways.

Is that accurate ?

pointofdeparture
pointofdeparture GRM+ Memberand PowerDork
3/1/17 10:45 a.m.

In reply to ebonyandivory:

That is pretty much my experience. My E46 needed what it needed when I was told to expect it.

I've never owned a Mk4 Golf, but every VAG product I have owned broke in ways I never could have expected at completely random times.

Paul_VR6
Paul_VR6 Dork
3/1/17 11:32 a.m.

I sold my 03 GTI 1.8t to get an E46 325i sport. They are quite different cars and I did it because I needed a moredoor for the kids/adulting. BMW was a much nicer car all around and the issues are well documented. Both cars have things you need to look out for but the earlier in the 2000's the VW is the more likely it will have random electrical problems.

Huckleberry
Huckleberry MegaDork
3/1/17 11:49 a.m.

BMW: Torquey, creamy smooth straight six with rear wheel drive, precise steering, nice snicky shifter and solid reliability with addressable issues that are well understood. Some of them really really annoying to fix.

VW: A crapshoot of reliability, steering feel trade-offs that come with FWD, a cable shifter ... but with a really nice interior.

Biases on the table - I'm a BMW guy all the way. Of the 60-70 or so cars I've owned in my lifetime about 20 have been 3 series. Only two were VWs. There is a reason.

markwemple
markwemple UltraDork
3/1/17 2:24 p.m.

But working on the e46 engine is such a pita. You always have to remove 3 things, at least, to get to the one thing you need to replace. And their cooling systems are fragile. So are the head gaskets.

Paul_VR6
Paul_VR6 Dork
3/1/17 2:31 p.m.

The head gaskets are better than the cooling system that pushes them to the limit.

Huckleberry
Huckleberry MegaDork
3/1/17 2:31 p.m.
markwemple wrote: But working on the e46 engine is such a pita. You always have to remove 3 things, at least, to get to the one thing you need to replace. And their cooling systems are fragile. So are the head gaskets.

Yes to everything but the head gaskets. Those are a side effect of not taking care of your cooling issues. Never overheat one... never need to fix one.

And for the lazy - just leave the "high fashion" plastic covers in the garage and you only have to remove the airbox or the cowl depending on which end you need to get to.

Tk8398
Tk8398 New Reader
3/1/17 3:27 p.m.

I bought a mk4 jetta and spent $1 a mile on maintenance in a couple months of driving. I ended up selling it and buying a Mercedes w210. Still not the best but far less problems than the vw.

ebonyandivory
ebonyandivory PowerDork
1/9/19 6:53 a.m.

Anyone besides me interested in reviving this thread? Maybe even toss in an appliance-type Subaru like a 2004-ish Legacy non-turbo manual?

ProDarwin
ProDarwin UltimaDork
1/9/19 7:02 a.m.

The thing that isn't mentioned in this thread regarding an E46 is the weld in subframe attachment reinforcements.  If you can drop everything out and weld some thick steel to some very thin steel (and have the car down for that amount of time), its no big deal.  If not, then it is a pretty big deal if/when it starts cracking.

 

rslifkin
rslifkin UltraDork
1/9/19 7:48 a.m.

In reply to ProDarwin :

Aren't the subframe mounts stronger on the 01+ E46s?  I don't remember those having the same subframe mount concerns, especially not on the street.  

ProDarwin
ProDarwin UltimaDork
1/9/19 7:58 a.m.

I dunno.  My coworker is currently repairing the subframe on an 02 or 03 330i thats bone stock with 80k miles on it only street driven.

Duke
Duke MegaDork
1/9/19 8:06 a.m.

My '03 325i did not have subframe issues.  It was daily driven for 125,000 miles plus probably 100-120 autocross passes on fairly sticky street tires.

ebonyandivory
ebonyandivory PowerDork
1/9/19 8:22 a.m.

In reply to Duke :

 

The internet says ‘04 and later are ok but it also doesn’t seem to be a sure thing like the cooling system appears to be.

 

rslifkin
rslifkin UltraDork
1/9/19 8:27 a.m.

Thinking about it, a friend had an 01 330i for a while.  He bought it with 150k on it, sold it around 230k.  He's kept in touch with the guy he sold it to and it's still going at 250+, original clutch, no subframe issues, etc.  

RedGT
RedGT Dork
1/9/19 8:28 a.m.

My perception is that you're gonna have to work on both of them more than average, but the E46 is an infinitely better car to drive and commute in.

I've driven both (even back to back, back in the day!) and currently own a beater E46.  Based on friends who have owned them, the E46 owners convinced me that the E46's need specific maintenance and they are great.  The VW owners convinced me that I never, ever want to own a mk4 VW.

Also worth mentioning, because of general E46 and especially E46M3 fanbois who will be maintaining the chassis very enthusiastically and for a long time to come, there is a TON of information/parts and every problem has a writeup online.  Drastically more than mk4 support, from my point of view, but i could be wrong.

xflowgolf
xflowgolf SuperDork
1/9/19 8:41 a.m.

mk4's have become throwaway cars.  The E46 as stated has more known but consistent issues.  

Mk4 struggles are real, and more random.  constantly burning out taillights.  door switches that randomly fail leading to alarms while the doors are closed in the middle of the night if you used keyless to lock it.  soft touch interior panels fail and look like garbage.  the rear beam bushings are cheap but a PITA to change, and they'll clunk and drive you nuts.  

If I was going to choose one 20 year old German car and all it's associated headaches using it as a daily driver, I would take the E46 all day long.  

...unless it's a TDI.  I put up with all the mk4 woes for the ALH tractor motor mpg's.  I now drive an E90 BMW, and it's a much more enjoyable experience.  

Buy the E46.  

Ian F
Ian F MegaDork
1/9/19 8:48 a.m.

Hmm... comparing a $20K car to a $40K car... which do you think will be nicer?

I'm probably as big a MkIV fan-boi as anyone on this forum and even I lean towards the E46 in this case.  The only reason I might still go with a MkIV is familiarity and being a glutton for punishment. Then again, a BMW in the same price range as a MkIV can be its own level of punishment.

RedGT
RedGT Dork
1/9/19 9:10 a.m.

Running driving E46's at $3k-$4k with some miles on em but nothing currently broken, are common.  $2k if you want to fix it up.  $5-6k if you want a perfect low mile one.  That seems in line with mk4 pricing from my craigslist experience.

Brett_Murphy
Brett_Murphy GRM+ Memberand UltimaDork
1/9/19 9:24 a.m.

BOTH of these car models have drifted into the "buy the best one you can find, with stacks of records" age and maintenance categories.

I see them fairly often in the LKQs around Raleigh, so there is that.

If it was me, I'd get a BMW, but I'd budget a bucket of time and money to get it up to shape.

 

Tyler H
Tyler H GRM+ Memberand UberDork
1/9/19 10:04 a.m.
rslifkin said:

In reply to ProDarwin :

Aren't the subframe mounts stronger on the 01+ E46s?  I don't remember those having the same subframe mount concerns, especially not on the street.  

No.  The issue potentially affects all of the E46 chassis, including the M3.  

The BMW is a better car than the VW.  Neither make the most sense if you're looking for utilitarian, low TCO transportation.  I wouldn't shop the low end of the market.  Spend a little more for a nice 330i....all of the maintenance costs are fixed, might as well get the extra power.   

Budget $1500-2k to put it right as soon as you buy it, get rewarded with a car that is as reliable as the Japanese stuff.

 

1 2

You'll need to log in to post.

Our Preferred Partners
9hfNcLcpor4FXjayZCdRn9MiAMmk9hGi2zGhMrS5mPojE1h7ugJ9rMPDq8aO5Ba1