https://www.flyinmiata.com/edelbrock-supercharger-for-nd.html
I had to remake this because I can't edit topic titles....
Anyways I always heard good things about the BRZ/FRS version of this and was happy to see there is a Miata version. Makes me want to pick up a used Miata once these become more readily available, maybe a RF in a year or two lol.
I think the cost is very similar to the AVO turbo kit also for the ND but the Turbo makes a lot more power? So I wonder what Keith thinks of the two setups
Well FM sells the Edelbrock and the BBR turbo.
I know for the BRZ the AVO is a pretty terrible kit.
It's interesting, we have both the BBR turbo and the Edelbrock here at sea level for the first time. They're remarkably similar down here according to the dyno. At 5000' altitude there is a significant difference. Even at 2000'. I'll have track time in both at sea level starting tomorrow, I've already run them both on track at 5000'.
Peak power is limited by the ability of the direct injection fuel system to deliver fuel, so they both peak out at about the same spot. And no, you can't just bung in bigger injectors and it's not a PDI setup with port injectors that can be upsized like the BRZ.
More to come. Currently, the best way I can differentiate them at sea level is that the turbo has much more potential once the rest of the engine is uncorked (the blower is in its happy place, the turbo can easily run twice as much power as it does now) but the supercharger includes a limited powertrain warranty that runs until the car hits 3 years/36k miles.
Also, I have seen NDs with four digit odometers for sale for less than $20k already.
Will look forward to your additional experiences.
If I had to guess the SC will be no muss no fuss easy, while the turbo will have more potential but might need more supporting mods/care and feeding
while the turbo will have more potential but might need more ... care
Most turbo setups are one vacuum line problem away from blowing up the engine while most supercharger setups are one small problem away from just being really slow. Superchargers win the safety battle by a mile.
Keith Tanner said:And no, you can't just bung in bigger injectors and it's not a PDI setup with port injectors that can be upsized like the BRZ.
IDK anything about these direct injection engines, does this mean you can't put higher flowing injectors in? I assume there is some way around this if that's the case?
I'd be interested in seeing what an engine with bigger injectors and aftermarket pistons for more boost would do with a pulley upgrade on the supercharger in this case. I've seen results like that with the FRS with the equivalent supercharger for that and it was power I would definately be happy with. IDK if I would want a 2200lb roadster with 400hp lol. 300 or so would be fine for me, who knows maybe even the supercharger setup as it comes out of the box would be fine. This car is like 1500lbs lighter than my current daily driver lmao.
Can the ND transmission even handle this amount of power?
Keith Tanner said:At 5000' altitude there is a significant difference. Even at 2000'.
...in favor of the turbo, or the blower?
Duke said:Keith Tanner said:At 5000' altitude there is a significant difference. Even at 2000'.
...in favor of the turbo, or the blower?
I'm guessing in favor of the turbo.
In reply to jstein77 :
I am too, but I was wondering if Keith was being intentionally ambiguous, or if the answer is so obvious there should be no possible way to misinterpret it.
kanaric said:Keith Tanner said:And no, you can't just bung in bigger injectors and it's not a PDI setup with port injectors that can be upsized like the BRZ.
IDK anything about these direct injection engines, does this mean you can't put higher flowing injectors in? I assume there is some way around this if that's the case?
I'd be interested in seeing what an engine with bigger injectors and aftermarket pistons for more boost would do with a pulley upgrade on the supercharger in this case. I've seen results like that with the FRS with the equivalent supercharger for that and it was power I would definately be happy with. IDK if I would want a 2200lb roadster with 400hp lol. 300 or so would be fine for me, who knows maybe even the supercharger setup as it comes out of the box would be fine. This car is like 1500lbs lighter than my current daily driver lmao.
Can the ND transmission even handle this amount of power?
I don't have information specific to the ND, but on the direct injected Ecotecs, the problem there was literally no option for a higher flow injector. Recently, GM finally introduced a higher flow injector on a 3L engine used in an Opel that could be adapted to the Ecotecs.
Keith Tanner said:It's interesting, we have both the BBR turbo and the Edelbrock here at sea level for the first time. They're remarkably similar down here according to the dyno. At 5000' altitude there is a significant difference. Even at 2000'. I'll have track time in both at sea level starting tomorrow, I've already run them both on track at 5000'.
Peak power is limited by the ability of the direct injection fuel system to deliver fuel, so they both peak out at about the same spot. And no, you can't just bung in bigger injectors and it's not a PDI setup with port injectors that can be upsized like the BRZ.
More to come. Currently, the best way I can differentiate them at sea level is that the turbo has much more potential once the rest of the engine is uncorked (the blower is in its happy place, the turbo can easily run twice as much power as it does now) but the supercharger includes a limited powertrain warranty that runs until the car hits 3 years/36k miles.
Also, I have seen NDs with four digit odometers for sale for less than $20k already.
I feel like it's important to note, that the warranty is only honored if the entire kit is installed by an ASE technician or approved Edelbrock shop.
I suspect that adds another $1500-2000 to the cost of S/C.
In reply to z31maniac :
Ya to me the idea of this package is that it's easy to do in your garage during a weekend. I wouldn't want to pay someone to install it even if the warranty is saved.
Jaynen said:If I had to guess the SC will be no muss no fuss easy, while the turbo will have more potential but might need more supporting mods/care and feeding
Nope. Same level of supporting mods and with a good install, no change in care and feeding.
Okay, I'm back from the track.
The turbo has a significant advantage at altitude. Testing at High Plains Raceway on the same suspension but different tires, I saw something like 8.5s or 9.5s difference in lap times. Throw in 3s for the tires and you're still at 5+s on a 2:00 lap. It's far less of an advantage at sea level.
Throwing bigger injectors into a direct injection engine is not as simple as you might think. We've talked about this in the past, but basically both systems have the same peak power because of it. The shape of the torque curve is different.
As for reliability, a well set-up turbo will have some sort of overboost protection so you don't frag a motor if you blow off a hose. They're pretty solid if installed well.
Over the course of the weekend, we ran our BBR turbo car in every single session at Miatas at MRLS. That's 15 hours of pounding around Laguna Seca. The drivetrain didn't miss a beat, but we did use up two sets of brake pads and had to swap rotors 
The supercharged car didn't get the same sort of abuse - only 1/5th the track time and worse tires - but it was rock solid as well.
The Edelbrock supercharger uses a TVS900 blower due to packaging reasons. This is not a high-power supercharger, so there's only so much power gain you'll get from cranking up the boost. It's already getting up close to 14 psi at redline at sea level.
the warranty is only honored if the entire kit is installed by an ASE technician or approved Edelbrock shop.
I suspect that adds another $1500-2000 to the cost of S/C.
In that case, I will install that kit for $2000. $1500 for GRM'ers. 
kanaric said:IDK anything about these direct injection engines, does this mean you can't put higher flowing injectors in? I assume there is some way around this if that's the case?
The aftermarket for higher flowing direct fuel injectors is basically non-existant. Lingenfelter now sells a kit for the C7 ZO6 with higher flowing injectors, but those are the only ones that I've seen. They're expensive, and it's not as simple as swapping port injectors. They often have a cam-driven high pressure fuel pump that is a common limit too. In the case of the Lingenfelter ZO6 kit, you get a ported high pressure pump, a new camshaft (to drive the pump), and 8 fancy injectors. That adds up to $6k in parts, plus install, plus tuning. That price might be palatable on a $100k ZO6, but it's tougher to swallow on a $30k Miata.
STM317 said:kanaric said:IDK anything about these direct injection engines, does this mean you can't put higher flowing injectors in? I assume there is some way around this if that's the case?
The aftermarket for higher flowing direct fuel injectors is basically non-existant. Lingenfelter now sells a kit for the C7 ZO6 with higher flowing injectors, but those are the only ones that I've seen. They're expensive, and it's not as simple as swapping port injectors. They often have a cam-driven high pressure fuel pump that is a common limit too. In the case of the Lingenfelter ZO6 kit, you get a ported high pressure pump, a new camshaft (to drive the pump), and 8 fancy injectors. That adds up to $6k in parts, plus install, plus tuning. That price might be palatable on a $100k ZO6, but it's tougher to swallow on a $30k Miata.
yikes, i guess i'll stay away from DI cars for now if I want to mod them.
In reply to kanaric :
Not necessarily a bad thing. there are options. The 1.6T from Hy/Kia is pulling 44whp from a tune. Adding in exhaust, intercooler and intake and they're pushing right at 240whp. out of a 1.6. That's not bad and it's not stressing the engine at those levels.
Direct injection/turbo stuff tends to have pretty strong gains with minor mods, but you reach a point where the stock fuel system is maxxed out, and then things either get very expensive, or you have no further options (for now). DI stuff isn't going anywhere though, so I don't think it's unreasonable to expect the aftermarket for DI related parts to continue to grow.
STM317 said:Direct injection/turbo stuff tends to have pretty strong gains with minor mods, but you reach a point where the stock fuel system is maxxed out, and then things either get very expensive, or you have no further options (for now). DI stuff isn't going anywhere though, so I don't think it's unreasonable to expect the aftermarket for DI related parts to continue to grow.
Hopefully manufacturers will keep doing like they are with the BRZ/FR-S and the new Mustang engine with both DI and PI
kanaric said:STM317 said:kanaric said:IDK anything about these direct injection engines, does this mean you can't put higher flowing injectors in? I assume there is some way around this if that's the case?
The aftermarket for higher flowing direct fuel injectors is basically non-existant. Lingenfelter now sells a kit for the C7 ZO6 with higher flowing injectors, but those are the only ones that I've seen. They're expensive, and it's not as simple as swapping port injectors. They often have a cam-driven high pressure fuel pump that is a common limit too. In the case of the Lingenfelter ZO6 kit, you get a ported high pressure pump, a new camshaft (to drive the pump), and 8 fancy injectors. That adds up to $6k in parts, plus install, plus tuning. That price might be palatable on a $100k ZO6, but it's tougher to swallow on a $30k Miata.
yikes, i guess i'll stay away from DI cars for now if I want to mod them.
Forget modding, I stay away from them for the reliability aspect
Yes, that is a gumball-sized ball of carbon on a valve stem. Every valve looked like this after 35K miles on a GM DI 4.3L
All the manufacturers are having issues with this. Talk on the BMW/Audi/Porsche forums I'm on is getting this walnut blasted off every 20k miles, for $1000+ a pop.
Mazda says they get some initial deposits, and then they stop.
So with these DI setups, a good spell of high RPM driving doesn't burn the carbon off?
JBasham said:So with these DI setups, a good spell of high RPM driving doesn't burn the carbon off?
Nope. Becuase you don't get the fuel wash over the valves to clean them off. They also cook the oil on the pistons (due to higher combustion temps) and stick the rings and then start burning the oil
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