EV Infrastructure

Why the hell haven't we standardized on one standard charger for all EVs yet? I think infrastructure is going to be a struggle until that is done.

In reply to 93EXCivic :

We basically have. Teslas use Tesla. Everything else uses J1772/CCS. 

There are four types of liquid fuel available at pretty much every gas station.

Well, Teslas use Tesla for both Level 2 (slow) and Level 3 (fast) charging. The reason there's a specific Tesla connector is because there wasn't really a valid standard when they started rolling out Superchargers so they had to make their own and nobody else has decided to adopt it.

All EVs (including Teslas with an adapter that's included with the car) use J1772 for Level 2. Basically, Level 2 is not a problem.

Most EVs that are not Teslas use CCS for Level 3 charging. Adapters to allow Teslas to use CCS are appearing, and some new Superchargers are being set up to provide both CCS and Tesla. In Europe, Superchargers are CCS. There are some Supercharger to CCS adapters out there as well, I believe. So they're starting to play well together.

A few EVs use CHAdeMO, but it's walking dead IMO.

Basically, J1772 and CCS are looking to be the standard going forward and there's going to be some crossover to the Tesla standard as well.

I can't put the same liquid fuel in my truck and my BMW, and the BMW also doesn't like the liquid fuel I use in my Jeep. All of these have to be kept separate from the refinery to the pump nozzle, where the chargers really only differ at the plug and the back end supply of electricity is the same.

Robbie (Forum Supporter) said:

 

It's gonna need to scale with the number of EVs on the roads, but it seems to me there are few real problems and lots of imaginary ones. 

Two major things in my area: 1, politics and 2, misconceptions.

// danger danger politics //

For some reason certain political commentators have linked electric cars with socialism and ICE cars with capitalism. As if we forgot the oil industry is definitely held up with a mix of crony capitalism and energy independence related subsidies. As if EVs can't happen without all manner of other things (solar power, etc), and simply because [political figure] says that EVs are [good/bad] and [political figure] is my [enemy/hero] I don't like them. Plus, what sort of good American am I if I don't just love paying $4/gallon for my crew cab pickup to stick it to the man (which makes so little sense it hurts).

A friend is going to buy a Lightning when they come out. He was chatting with fellow parents at a baseball game for their kids. He heard "I can't give up the power of an engine", "I need more than 100 miles of range", and "I really like the torque" from the same family. Nonsense, of course, but it's real.

Also, for some reason there is a movement to label all EVs are fire hazards (See Dave Frieburger) as if no internal combustion engines ever catches fire. I don't get this either.

93EXCivic said:

Why the hell haven't we standardized on one standard charger for all EVs yet? I think infrastructure is going to be a struggle until that is done.

Overall, we're still at the infancy of charging.

I would say for AC based charging (what most people are likely to use at home) we're basically there. The SAE J1772 standard has been stable for more than a decade, accommodates up to 80 amps, and there are vehicle to grid variants.

The DC fast charging standards are iterating rapidly, and cars are changing architecture in parallel. That's why you're seeing so many companies increasing system voltage of their cars from 400 to 800V. With amperage being equal, you can add more energy over time at a higher voltage. Or you can apply the same kWh quantity of energy with less heat, which can also be advantageous.

tuna55 said:

Robbie (Forum Supporter) said:

 

It's gonna need to scale with the number of EVs on the roads, but it seems to me there are few real problems and lots of imaginary ones. 

 

Two major things in my area: 1, politics and 2, misconceptions.

// danger danger politics //

For some reason certain political commentators have linked electric cars with socialism and ICE cars with capitalism. As if we forgot the oil industry is definitely held up with a mix of crony capitalism and energy independence related subsidies. As if EVs can't happen without all manner of other things (solar power, etc), and simply because [political figure] says that EVs are [good/bad] and [political figure] is my [enemy/hero] I don't like them. Plus, what sort of good American am I if I don't just love paying $4/gallon for my crew cab pickup to stick it to the man (which makes so little sense it hurts).

A friend is going to buy a Lightning when they come out. He was chatting with fellow parents at a baseball game for their kids. He heard "I can't give up the power of an engine", "I need more than 100 miles of range", and "I really like the torque" from the same family. Nonsense, of course, but it's real.

Also, for some reason there is a movement to label all EVs are fire hazards (See Dave Frieburger) as if no internal combustion engines ever catches fire. I don't get this either.

My wife's construction coworkers are remarkably (but not universally) positive about her EV, and the most common comment is "when Ford makes an electric F150, I'll get one".

The connection between EVs and self-driving is a problem politically as well. Really, it's just two different technologies coming of age at the same time and of course they are very clearly linked in the largest EV-only automaker, but a lot of people do equate EVs to not being able to drive their own car. Or not being allowed to drive their own car.

I think the fire hazard concern is legit. Not that they catch fire often, but when they do they don't burn the same way an ICE does so the fire department needs the tools and training to deal with it. 

In reply to Robbie (Forum Supporter) :

There is a real issue though.   Those that wait too long are going to be paying too much. In part to inflation plus future expenses for battery plants and mining sources etc
      My wife already has passed her mental budget and once that happens she becomes very mule-ish.  She's been saving her bonus money etc to pay off her new Tesla. She budgeted over $40,000 but now they are up over $50,000 with no site of the lower priced one hitting the market soon.  
     She feels her 2013 Honda CRV will last the rest of her life. 
     So now I have to convince here the Honda will cost her more than the Tesla will at the new price.  
   I'm taking oil changes, brake jobs,  timing belt. ATF fluid replacement, Battery, and a budget for a few accessories for the next 10 years. 
adding gas at $4.20/ gallon

   I hate making spred sheets but that's the only way to convince her 

Keith Tanner said:

tuna55 said:

Robbie (Forum Supporter) said:

 

It's gonna need to scale with the number of EVs on the roads, but it seems to me there are few real problems and lots of imaginary ones. 

 

Two major things in my area: 1, politics and 2, misconceptions.

// danger danger politics //

For some reason certain political commentators have linked electric cars with socialism and ICE cars with capitalism. As if we forgot the oil industry is definitely held up with a mix of crony capitalism and energy independence related subsidies. As if EVs can't happen without all manner of other things (solar power, etc), and simply because [political figure] says that EVs are [good/bad] and [political figure] is my [enemy/hero] I don't like them. Plus, what sort of good American am I if I don't just love paying $4/gallon for my crew cab pickup to stick it to the man (which makes so little sense it hurts).

A friend is going to buy a Lightning when they come out. He was chatting with fellow parents at a baseball game for their kids. He heard "I can't give up the power of an engine", "I need more than 100 miles of range", and "I really like the torque" from the same family. Nonsense, of course, but it's real.

Also, for some reason there is a movement to label all EVs are fire hazards (See Dave Frieburger) as if no internal combustion engines ever catches fire. I don't get this either.

My wife's construction coworkers are remarkably (but not universally) positive about her EV, and the most common comment is "when Ford makes an electric F150, I'll get one".

The connection between EVs and self-driving is a problem politically as well. Really, it's just two different technologies coming of age at the same time and of course they are very clearly linked in the largest EV-only automaker, but a lot of people do equate EVs to not being able to drive their own car. Or not being allowed to drive their own car.

I think the fire hazard concern is legit. Not that they catch fire often, but when they do they don't burn the same way an ICE does so the fire department needs the tools and training to deal with it. 

In the early days of EFI fire departments used to call them Car-B-Ques.  The car would catch on fire  and by the time the fire department got it out the car was totaled. 
    So now if a EV or an ICE car catches on fire they are both totaled and insurance solves that problem.  

frenchyd said:

In reply to Robbie (Forum Supporter) :

There is a real issue though.   Those that wait too long are going to be paying too much. In part to inflation plus future expenses for battery plants and mining sources etc
      My wife already has passed her mental budget and once that happens she becomes very mule-ish.  She's been saving her bonus money etc to pay off her new Tesla. She budgeted over $40,000 but now they are up over $50,000 with no site of the lower priced one hitting the market soon.  
     She feels her 2013 Honda CRV will last the rest of her life. 
     So now I have to convince here the Honda will cost her more than the Tesla will at the new price.  
   I'm taking oil changes, brake jobs,  timing belt. ATF fluid replacement, Battery, and a budget for a few accessories for the next 10 years. 
adding gas at $4.20/ gallon

   I hate making spred sheets but that's the only way to convince her 

1. Yes, everytime something is good and cheap it doesn't last for long, and the people who want one but don't buy early end up bummed. Is that a real issue or is that markets doing their job?

2. I don't see how that has anything to do with EV infactructure.

I'm pretty sure that if you have to call the fire department for a burning vehicle, it's too late for the vehicle (if the fire doesn't completely total it, filling it up with water will probably finish it off).

The big thing is limiting other damages and preventing fire spread. That is where EVs and ICEs need to be treated differently.

Also, I'm pretty sure there is quite a lot of fire prevention and suppression that is constantly in action at gas stations...

Your gas station doesn't have the roof it has just to keep you out of the rain... 

Robbie (Forum Supporter) said:

frenchyd said:

In reply to Robbie (Forum Supporter) :

There is a real issue though.   Those that wait too long are going to be paying too much. In part to inflation plus future expenses for battery plants and mining sources etc
      My wife already has passed her mental budget and once that happens she becomes very mule-ish.  She's been saving her bonus money etc to pay off her new Tesla. She budgeted over $40,000 but now they are up over $50,000 with no site of the lower priced one hitting the market soon.  
     She feels her 2013 Honda CRV will last the rest of her life. 
     So now I have to convince here the Honda will cost her more than the Tesla will at the new price.  
   I'm taking oil changes, brake jobs,  timing belt. ATF fluid replacement, Battery, and a budget for a few accessories for the next 10 years. 
adding gas at $4.20/ gallon

   I hate making spred sheets but that's the only way to convince her 

1. Yes, everytime something is good and cheap it doesn't last for long, and the people who want one but don't buy early end up bummed. Is that a real issue or is that markets doing their job?

2. I don't see how that has anything to do with EV infactructure.

My friend has had her Tesla for just over a year.  In fuel savings alone she is $93.32 a month over her old Honda.  

Speaking to a friend in the industry about the "plug and charge" standard in CCS and if it will solve the problems found in this study (remember the study?). Pardon the grammar, it was a Slack chat.

Plug and Charge will only make it worse not better

It adds complexity, doesn't take it away

If they can't figure out the basics of “here's a card, let me charge”, the more complicated “here's a VIN communicated over a wire protocol, please look up how to charge me” is unlikely to work too

That group (which consists of people who work in the tech industry in the Bay area, mostly) seems to think the main cause of those authorization problems (the reason half of the chargers were deemed inoperative) is purely connectivity. Another member of the group who has been roadtripping a Volvo EV says that calling the help number on the charger fixes the problem roughly half the time, and it takes about 10 minutes plus a short hold time. He was also not surprised by the numbers in the study. 

The guys who bought Hydrogen fuel cell cars are the real orphans , 

Toyota was almost giving them away , and they were close to a Lexus build,

they were less than $20k with the rebates....

BUT there are very few public filling stations ,  and it's real bad when you leave the major population areas in California , and maybe impossible in other states , 

There happens to be a public filling station a mile down the street next to the freeway ,  it is used very little !

So will all the variations of EVs still work  In 10-20 years ?
 

My friend is probably going to get a Ford Think EV that was built in Norway,  I wonder if it will charge at an EV charge point , he plans on charging at home most of the time , but may get stuck away from home sometimes......

Hydrogen has the problem that there is no existing infrastructure at all and there are very few public filling stations, spread across just 4-5 states. Electricity has a huge infrastructure, we just need to add the end points. I think the Japanese government has decided to bet on H2, which is why Toyota makes the Mirai and why Mazda made a hydrogen powered rotary Miata (!!!) in the early 90s.

I personally think the EV landscape has settled down enough that mass market vehicles will still be viable in 20 years. I put my money where my mouth is there :) 10 years ago, things were a lot less certain. But now we have a solid Level 2 standard and a couple of viable Level 3 options.

The Th!nk has an on-board charger, so it should be able to charge anywhere you can find 230V power (being from Europe). You won't find 230V outlets at charging stations but they are all over the place. You've probably got at least 2 in your house. It takes nearly 10 hours for a full charge so it was never really intended to charge anywhere outside its home base - so nothing has changed there.

The Th!nk is a great example of what the EV market looked like before the Model S. $42k, dorky looking, 100 mile range. Two years later, the S arrived and totally changed people's perception of what an EV could be and do.

californiamilleghia said:

My friend is probably going to get a Ford Think EV that was built in Norway,  I wonder if it will charge at an EV charge point , he plans on charging at home most of the time , but may get stuck away from home sometimes......

If it was originally sold here, I would be shocked if it's not SAE J1772. 

Agreed that 99.8% of the time, it would be a non issue.  100% of the time if I had 2 cars.  Out of curiosity, I mapped out a trip I just took this past weekend in an ICE car using plugshare to see what it would look like in an EV.  Result was about an hour longer, which would have been no fun, but we are talking about the first trip of this kind I have taken in many years.  That said, there are very few good chargers along the route, if one of them was out of commission it could either have greatly lengthened the trip, or put a stop to it all together.

I can understand the fire concern somewhat.  My car sits in my basement.  ICE cars have caught on fire, but how often does that happen when they are just sitting there?  A Bolt, just sitting there, is a fire risk.

Keith Tanner said:

Hydrogen has the problem that there is no existing infrastructure at all and there are very few public filling stations, spread across just 4-5 states. Electricity has a huge infrastructure, we just need to add the end points. I think the Japanese government has decided to bet on H2, which is why Toyota makes the Mirai and why Mazda made a hydrogen powered rotary Miata (!!!) in the early 90s.

Also that practically all hydrogen currently produced is a fossil fuel byproduct, so it's practically a fossil fuel. This is why the fossil fuel industry keeps bringing this zombie idea back. Elon Musk has a vested interest in killing hydrogen cars, but he's not wrong about what an awful idea they are.

I like to say that hydrogen cars offer the best selection of the worst downsides: The high up-front vehicle cost and "refuel" time of an EV, the current fossil fuel reliance (and roughly the fuel cost) of an ICE, and the fuel availability and safety issues of a...hydrogen car.

ProDarwin said:

 

I can understand the fire concern somewhat.  My car sits in my basement.  ICE cars have caught on fire, but how often does that happen when they are just sitting there?  A Bolt, just sitting there, is a fire risk.

So that's the rub. That last sentence isn't any more true than it is for any other vehicle.

In reply to californiamilleghia :

Making electricity work is a lot easier than fixing the problems of the Hydrogen fuel cell program.  
Here is the problem.  Pick up a flywheel or torque converter.  Imagine all the complexity of the transmission each is attached to and weight.  
EV's don't have those.  

nor valves, crankshafts, connecting rods, or pistons where only one stroke in 4 does anything worthwhile. 
EV's don't have those.  
Just a simple motor that goes backwards or forwards depending on which way you want it to go.   It also has regenerative capability so instead of wearing out brake pads  it puts energy back into the battery.  
    The energy can come from your own windgenerator or solar array.  Or you can buy it and spend a lot less than it takes to bring oil from the god forsaken corners of the earth, then refine it into something useable and ship it to where you can go get it. Many Thousands  of dollars less per year.  Plus you won't need to make appointments to have your oil changed periodically. Plus all the other attention that an ICE requires. 
    Then there is the whole issue of compressing Hydrogen and selling a Network for such an inefficient power plant. 
    Yes you and I love our ICE. For me the more complex the more interesting  so 12 cylinders is much more exciting than 8 or 6 or 4.  We can keep our toys if we want but most people just want transportation.  The less cost and easier the better. 

ProDarwin said:

ICE cars have caught on fire, but how often does that happen when they are just sitting there? 

I'd say it's probably not common, but it does happen. Ford had a number of trucks and SUVs that were recalled for fire risk while just parked, and several houses were burned down in the process. Anything with a bunch of energy in it is dangerous. Especially as they age, ICE cars can leak any number of flammable fluids and vapors that could be ignited by a stray spark.

In reply to dculberson :

Cadillac ElDorado's  in the late 1950's had a gas powered heater designed to preheat the car.   They caught fire just sitting in the garage.   

If I had a corporate job  And went to the same office everyday  the Hydrogen Toyota would be a nice ride  at the very discounted price , 

but the cost of Hydrogen is pretty high , Toyota gave you a debit card good for 2 years or so of fuel , but then the cost is 2x  of petrol 

So when these Hydrogen cars are 3-4 years old they will be dead cheap , if it fits your lifestyle :)

As far as tye Smart car , a friend in Norway worked designing them and they needed 75 miles to be considered an EV under USA laws , 

We have come a long way since then !

A dream family fleet for me would be a 15 passenger Ford Transit and a single cab pickup EV.  Short commute to work for me and a short trips around to Lowes or the metal yard would make an EV work.  That said, there is little to no EV infrastructure in my area.  It would all have to be at home charging.  

But for now, we are going to be sticking with the E350 (V10 POWER!), the Odyssey, and my Ranger.  

ProDarwin said:

I can understand the fire concern somewhat.  My car sits in my basement.  ICE cars have caught on fire, but how often does that happen when they are just sitting there?  A Bolt, just sitting there, is a fire risk.

 ask Porsche or Ferrari or VW about random ICE fires even while not in use. 

------

I'll add something constructive to the conversion. Unless you're using the apps or the map websites, you most likely won't even notice a lot of the EV infrastructure currently rolled out for during trip charging. 

I wa blown away last summer when I pulled up the charging point site and saw just how many are in my local area. I only knew of two, one at a dealer and one at a random Dunkin Donuts, but there were dozens already.