EV Infrastructure

preach (dudeist priest) said:

Porsche is just going to use air and water for fuel in their Mobile 1 racing series:

https://www.foxnews.com/auto/porsche-replacing-gasoline-air-water

"Since it requires as much carbon dioxide to make as it emits in its emissions, it is essentially a net-zero fuel and could be approved for widespread use under future emissions rules. Porsche, other sports car companies and even the Formula One series have been investigating its implementation in order to preserve the performance and aural entertainment benefits of internal combustion engines in their products."

Air and water and a metric berkeleyton of electricity. This can work as a niche product, but replacing all fossil fuels with electrofuels right now would take a 3x-4x increase in world electricity generation capacity, and then more than the current world grid capacity would be turned into waste heat through ICEs.

GameboyRMH said:

One of 107 in the US, that's a huge increase, just a few years ago you could've counted them on your fingers:

https://www.glpautogas.info/en/hydrogen-stations-united-states.html

I don't think it's going to beat electricity being in most every manmade structure though.

We have 2 hydrogen "stations" within 5 miles from here , maybe the only place in the country that are that close ,

Toyota headquarters was nearby and they had one station across the street , and the other one is at a Standard oil station , 

There is a line  to fill up sometimes , but not many hydrogen cars were sold and I am sure they lose money.

GameboyRMH said:

preach (dudeist priest) said:

Porsche is just going to use air and water for fuel in their Mobile 1 racing series:

https://www.foxnews.com/auto/porsche-replacing-gasoline-air-water

"Since it requires as much carbon dioxide to make as it emits in its emissions, it is essentially a net-zero fuel and could be approved for widespread use under future emissions rules. Porsche, other sports car companies and even the Formula One series have been investigating its implementation in order to preserve the performance and aural entertainment benefits of internal combustion engines in their products."

Air and water and a metric berkeleyton of electricity. This can work as a niche product, but replacing all fossil fuels with electrofuels right now would take a 3x-4x increase in world electricity generation capacity, and then more than the current world grid capacity would be turned into waste heat through ICEs.

I think I understand why they'd pursue this, but it seems massively wasteful, and kind of dumb considering the alternatives that we currently have available. It's incredibly energy intensive.

E Fuel makers: We're going to make a carbon neutral fuel for ICEs

Society: Cool! How's it work?

E Fuel makers: First, we  generate a bunch of electricity from renewables.

Society: And then we use that electricity to power EVs right?

E Fuel makers: Nope! Then we do work (creating energy loss) to combine that electricity and a bunch of de-salinated water to get 'green' hydrogen.

Society: And then we use that hydrogen to power efficient hydrogen fuel cell vehicles or hydrogen powered ICE's right?

E fuel makers: Nah, that would be too easy! Then we do a bunch more work to turn the hydrogen into methane

Society: Ok...and we can use that in natural gas or propane powered vehicles with little change right?

E Fuel makers: Wrong again! We do even more work, creating even more energy loss to end up with unrefined gas!

Society: Well that seems like a lot of work, but at least it has no emissions right?

E Fuel makers: Well technically, that gas cannot be used as is, and requires even more work through a refining process so that it can be used in our vehicles. And then, it will still have some amount of smog forming tailpipe emissions like particulates, NOx, etc.

Society: Oh... great...

It would be fascinating to try and determine how many joules of electricity need to be generated per gallon of synthetic gas. And then determine how many miles could be driven at each step of the production process by an EV, hydrogen powered vehicle, or even methane instead of doing all of this work, and suffering efficiency losses at each step of the process just to keep using what we've been using because it's familiar and comfortable.

In reply to STM317 :

Why nobody cares. It makes them feel all warm and fuzzy that they drive a "green" vehicle

Remember the deal about a Prius being worse cradle to grave than a hummer. Wether its true or not, or framed incorrectly nobody cared. Move the pollution or waste to somewhere I dont see and I still get to feel good at the end.

If more people cared about stuff everything would be different, including slave labor for your consumer goods, massive energy used to ship stuff across seas to save a buck, powering green things (cars, appliances etc) with the dirtiest energy source, killing pipelines and using trains and semis to ship instead, etc.

It saddens me because I believe things like "green" (oh i hate even saying it because of how corrupted its become) energy, or thinking about things in a more holistic manner could have huge positive impacts on humanity, but implementation always seems to be just a facade.

In reply to frenchyd :

I have bad news for you about MN and the grid.

1) nothing in life is free.  Someone always pays.  There is no such thing as free energy.

2). "Renewable" energy and reliable energy are not the same thing.  
 

The grid requires stable voltage and frequency to work.  If it detects fluctuations in either it starts shedding loads, literally called load shedding.  Think TX winter storm Uri.  If the grid collapses due to unreliable energy, no one is sure how to restart it.  A full grid restart grid blackout has never been done except in theory.  You'll never start a grid on "renewables."  
 

The grid is also severely stressed, undermaintained and NEEDS significant improvement.  Mandates and renewable energy won't upgrade the grid.  Demand is growing faster than the grid can deliver.  
 

US energy policy is the stuff of fantasy created by morons and psuedo science.  Stop supporting morons or get ready for catastrophic failure.  Those are the choices.  
 

Humanity has the resources, funds, manpower and technology to eliminate energy shortages.  It doesn't happen due to divisiveness and stupidity.  People will die unnecessarily this winter as a result.  

Nothing is free.  There are no magic answers to this issue.  Build all the EV charging stations you want.  It's like setting a table for 30 when you have food for 2.  

In reply to AnthonyGS (Forum Supporter) :

Its funny, when talking to you I mentioned a buddy is just retired from your industry, last time we talked about this his comments pretty much exactly mirror your post.

He mentioned in TX the more more traditional power sources were used to run or stabilize the energy infrastructure so there could be some "renewable" energy usage. He said currently you couldnt run energy infrastructure with the power generated by what most people consider green energy. Im not an energy guy, so Im not personally educated in it, but it is incredibly interesting to talk to him about it.

In reply to Opti :

A grid requires constant voltage and frequency.  That's something all of the "renewable" energy sources struggle with.  It's not a secret either but most people discussing energy policy don't care.

Like everything it's about balance. Many of the arguments on renewables and electric cars are either or. It's not either or, it will not be for a long long time. It's ICE and electric or conventional and renewable. People get all tits twisted because they think electric cars are BS and they aren't gonna drive one, well good there is room for everyone. Same with renewable energy, in some cases it works well, it supplements a generation challenge that we have. Some electric cars are probably good, they will primarily charge at non peak hours (not stressing the grid at all) and ease pressure on gasoline refining capacity (which is limited). There are a lot of solutions and people may benefit from different ones. 
 

I started to think about this with the Tesla semi. People are wilding out about it, it's not practical it doesn't work etc. I have a friend that does scrap metal. He runs about 50 trucks the my all look to run round trips of ~350 miles a day. That would be a great candidate to electrify. During the day he runs a large shredder (~10,000 HP) which is electric so the infrastructure is there. Good use case. 
 

I also work with a company that runs round trips from NY to Houston, 2 trucks per week every week. Bad use case for electric. Still room for everyone. 

In reply to AnthonyGS (Forum Supporter) :

You don't think storage could stabilize renewable power delivery? Say for the sake of argument there's some kind of garden-variety fossil power plant (coal, NG, pick your favorite), and next door a wind farm with a storage device (could be batteries, pumped hydro, thermal storage, not too important...) that can output the same amount of power, and it can store enough power from a full charge for 6 hours of output if the wind stops blowing. Why couldn't that "start the grid" just as well as the fossil power plant next door?

In reply to NY Nick :

Pop/beer/any  delivery trucks all can be electric and should be. When the factories shut off for the night the delivery trucks can charge.  
 Same with school buses.  It's a rare day when I get over 130 miles and I tend to be one of the high mileage guys.  
    

AnthonyGS (Forum Supporter) said:

In reply to Opti :

A grid requires constant voltage and frequency.  That's something all of the "renewable" energy sources struggle with.  It's not a secret either but most people discussing energy policy don't care.

A factory shuts down for the evening. And Mom goes home and cooks a meal.  The kids come home from school and turn on TV's and other screens. Dad comes home and plugs in the EV but it's set for off peak charging.  
   All of that off and on stuff doesn't happen at the same second.   But it's more or less equaled out by the engineers at the power companies. 

AnthonyGS (Forum Supporter) said:

In reply to frenchyd :

I have bad news for you about MN and the grid.

1) nothing in life is free.  Someone always pays.  There is no such thing as free energy.

2). "Renewable" energy and reliable energy are not the same thing.  
 

The grid requires stable voltage and frequency to work.  If it detects fluctuations in either it starts shedding loads, literally called load shedding.  Think TX winter storm Uri.  If the grid collapses due to unreliable energy, no one is sure how to restart it.  A full grid restart grid blackout has never been done except in theory.  You'll never start a grid on "renewables."  
 

The grid is also severely stressed, undermaintained and NEEDS significant improvement.  Mandates and renewable energy won't upgrade the grid.  Demand is growing faster than the grid can deliver.  
 

US energy policy is the stuff of fantasy created by morons and psuedo science.  Stop supporting morons or get ready for catastrophic failure.  Those are the choices.  
 

Humanity has the resources, funds, manpower and technology to eliminate energy shortages.  It doesn't happen due to divisiveness and stupidity.  People will die unnecessarily this winter as a result.  

Nothing is free.  There are no magic answers to this issue.  Build all the EV charging stations you want.  It's like setting a table for 30 when you have food for 2.  

I obviously understand better than you.  I'm trying to keep it simple.  The reason 20 states ( so far) are giving "free" solar panels*is because the demand is going up.  
* the owner pays for the panels by selling surplus energy  to the power company.  Just no cash outlay up front. 
   It's massively  cheaper to put solar panels and wind generators up than building a new power plant. Plus you don't have to pay for the wind or the sun. ( yes you get electricity  from solar panels on cloudy days just not as much ). 
      Modern wind generators work in as little as a 4 mph wind.  
    Yes we can still have power plants to deal with surges and low output days.  But we can also store renewable energy.  They've been doing it in Spain for more than a decade.  Australia is using storage batteries, Germany is pumping water, etc Nothing new to invent.   Doesn't matter if you pump water into a tower or store heat,  electrical charge   or whatever. 
 For the near term we'll just put less demand on the power plants when we can and they won't have to buy as much gas or whatever they use currently. 
    I have high hopes for Nuclear fusion  but that in the future as yet. 

frenchyd said:

AnthonyGS (Forum Supporter) said:

In reply to frenchyd :

I obviously understand better than you.  

This is why we have crap energy policy and a crap grid.  People like you think they understand the problem.  I'm sure your obvious understanding will comfort everyone that freezes to death this winter.  
 

The only thing you understand is green energy propaganda.  Ignorance truly is bliss.  Enjoy.  
 

We don't have to have energy shortages anywhere in the world ever, but we will continue to largely because of propaganda and lies.  Nothing is free.

frenchyd said:

In reply to NY Nick :

Pop/beer/any  delivery trucks all can be electric and should be. When the factories shut off for the night the delivery trucks can charge.  
 Same with school buses.  It's a rare day when I get over 130 miles and I tend to be one of the high mileage guys.  
   

Will a EV big delivery truck be too heavy for many bridges etc , that's what the concern with how Heavy a Tesla truck weighs with no load , 

In reply to AnthonyGS (Forum Supporter) :

I question if  you read my postings at all.  You seem to simply make up talking points and chastise me for your perceptions.  
 Please go back and actually read the last one. There will be a test. 

In reply to californiamilleghia :

Yes there are big ICE trucks that are too heavy for some  bridges and even roads.  
   Reasonably certain  Tesla has a few engineers who are aware of common rules regarding that as well. 
   But don't worry, there are  cranes in daily use that don't comply with bridge laws and have been for more than 30 years.  So apparently that's not going to be an issue 

californiamilleghia said:

frenchyd said:

In reply to NY Nick :

Pop/beer/any  delivery trucks all can be electric and should be. When the factories shut off for the night the delivery trucks can charge.  
 Same with school buses.  It's a rare day when I get over 130 miles and I tend to be one of the high mileage guys.  
   

Will a EV big delivery truck be too heavy for many bridges etc , that's what the concern with how Heavy a Tesla truck weighs with no load , 

I wouldn't think too heavy for bridges. I've read the truck weighs ~25,000 lbs. similar over the road trucks that are diesel are ~19,000. This would put this truck over  CDL weight if there was any load to speak of but any soda / beer delivery truck is a medium duty truck so a little different animal. 
To be fair even with the claimed 2k lb electric truck weight break you are still loosing 4K of gross weight capacity but I see many many trucks running under gross so I am sure that is something that could be managed. 

The bigest problem I see with battery-electric trucks is always use cases and balance. Keeping them diesel is the cheapest but they're still very "dirty" vehicles, Hybrids could be best of both worlds but have a fire risk more than double that of gas, and anything battery-electric can be so expensive it could just defeat the point outright AND one has to argue if the thousands of cells couldn't be used in better areas. 

In reply to GIRTHQUAKE :

Regardless of the class of vehicle, EVs have many fewer parts and require much less maintenance.  Fleet operators will see that the maintenance/fueling cost reduction is substantial and will pay for payload differences, charging infrastructure, and the increased cost of the EV and then some.  They will want the savings that EVs will provide and they will switch, and it will happen more quickly than some people think.  That doesn't mean every route today, but I bet the percentage of routes that could move to EV, is substantial today.

mattm said:

In reply to GIRTHQUAKE :

Regardless of the class of vehicle, EVs have many fewer parts and require much less maintenance.  Fleet operators will see that the maintenance/fueling cost reduction is substantial and will pay for payload differences, charging infrastructure, and the increased cost of the EV and then some.  They will want the savings that EVs will provide and they will switch, and it will happen more quickly than some people think.  That doesn't mean every route today, but I bet the percentage of routes that could move to EV, is substantial today.

Agreed. Plus there's also a quieter component- that some of these electric parts have already been built and have been in-service for quite some time, and that only the batteries and charging infrastructure is truly new. Take for instance electric mining trucks or LeTronneau Wheels. Both have decades of use and established parts and maintenance, with the latter (though low top speed) being used on road repair vehicles across the nation.