We all know that towing is going to be a hard thing to conquer for EV trucks. So let's brainstorm and bullE36 M3 some ideas to make it better.
could you add generators to the trailer axles and help offset the weight penalty?
build plug and play battery packs into trailers?
is anyone looking at braking regen from the trailer brakes?
what else can we come up with?
Maybe an EV trailer with its own motor and battery, synchronized with the towing vehicle.
Biggest thing is what Keith mentioned in the F150 thread and I've mentioned before: pull through chargers so that you don't have to unhook the trailer to recharge. Right now, if you were to tow with an EV truck, you'd either have to unhook and pull up to the charger or pull in sideways and block like 10 of them with the truck and trailer. Especially if it was a 35 foot trailer like mine.
I don't really see an alternative that's cost effective and won't weigh too much to avoid cutting into payload/towing capacities. The energy density just isn't there for current battery tech. You could have auxiliary battery packs that drop into place (like the frunk or bed) to give more range, but that's expensive, heavy, and still not very energy dense. It's going to take a pretty significant breakthrough in battery tech before battery EVs make sense as working vehicles on a wider scale.
Or, we move toward a scenario with multiple propulsion options (much like we currently have with gasoline/diesel/natural gas/etc). In this scenario, hydrogen fuel cells could basically be the diesel equivalent that's best suited for hard work since they have better energy density. But that seems like it's still a ways off, if it ever happens at all. Hydrogen is gaining acceptance in Europe and SE Asia, but there's basically 0 infrastructure for hydrogen in North America, and no production ready vehicles for doing actual work.
Structural batteries. When the trailer is the battery, and similar tech is applied to the tow vehicle, range will become much less of an issue.
Pete Gossett (Forum Supporter) said:Structural batteries. When the trailer is the battery, and similar tech is applied to the tow vehicle, range will become much less of an issue.
Isn't the battery the most significant expense in an EV right now? I like the idea, but I don't like the idea of my trailer being $10k more expensive just so I can tow. Except then my trailer can also power my house. So maybe.......
I think the low hanging fruit is going to be aero. Semis have been working on this. Make that box less draggy and you'll be more efficient. Won't solve the problem but it'll help and it's relatively easy.
For cross country trips? its going to be difficult to do much aside from pull through chargers to charge the battery in the EV truck. increased charging infastructure may be our future. Charging stops more like rest areas, because you will need to take 30+min breaks. That said, more likely, prime real estate for shops and restaurants to get captive audiences money.
Battery in the trailer - a number of safety hazards there. You would pretty much wind up with a minimally shielded high voltage power cable that needs to be plugged and unplugged. If it gets kinked, thats a fire. If it gets scraped, thats instant death to someone in the wet. BAAAD juju.
Generator on trailer axles - newton has a few words about that. No free energy.
Hot swap battery packs - somewhat doable, but challenging. EV safety basically dictates that the battery pack have a TON of crash shielding, which puts them in the hardest to reach areas of the car. Now, you might be able to do something like hide it under the front of the bed... but these packs are heavy, so bring a crane and if you drop one without shielding, battery runaway and a nasty fire.
The case that has always interested me is alge based biodiesel.
The trailer wouldn't need to feed power to the tow vehicle if it had motors of its own.
A number of EV experimenters have built 'pusher' trailers consisting of the disembodied front end of a autotrans FWD car (or back end of a Beetle), with the pusher's throttle slaved to the EV throttle pedal. For long distance travel you start the ICE engine and go on down the road burning gas.
With all of the integration that modern pickups have with trailers now (braking, stability, backing, etc) I would think that smartly dealing with an E-trailer will come along if/when the powered trailers come.
Or, we could just try to keep reducing charging times and adding infrastructure so that it's more on par with the current status quo.
A current gas truck that gets 20mpg on it's own probably gets 10mpg while towing. We completely accept and tolerate a ~50% reduction in range because we assume that replenishing that range will be relatively quick and locations to do so are plentiful. If charging speeds and infrastructure were similar, then reduced range really isn't a big obstacle that people would worry about.
Ford filed patents for a range extender that drops in the bed and looks like a toolbox. This seems to be a very logical short-medium term solution.
Long term, I agree that battery range, charging times, infrastructure are the right answer.
Still, for every F150 that tows a substantial load >150 miles, there are 300 F150s operated mostly in a <100 mile radius. I like how this is literally the first mass market EV Truck about to be for sale and the the first thing a lot of people say is "But I can't tow my house across the country with it".
ProDarwin said:I like how this is literally the first mass market EV Truck about to be for sale and the the first thing a lot of people say is "But I can't tow my house across the country with it".
Cultural memory can be a hard thing to change...
edit:
It's possible I've made this point in another thread before
I really don't see a tech in the forseeable future that allows reasonable use of electric vehicles for long haul. Maybe convert as many commuters and short haul lines to electric as possible, and leave the diesel fuel for the coast to coast and long haul stuff.
However, the problem for a personal truck becomes difficult in the same way as my 4.8 Silverado. It is adequate for towing a Neon on an open trailer just about anywhere. It is able to tow a super late model in a 28 foot enclosed trailer across town, but it ain't happy about it. However, I put up with ten days per year of less than perfect towing, because the idea of daily driving a dual wheel diesel pickup truck just horrifies me.
My idea of the solution is to purchase the electric vehicle you use 98% of the time, and rent something with all the diesel for the big tow jobs. Tricky part is, I'm not sure how available a rental 3500 Silverado with all the tow stuff is. Business opportunity as time moves on, maybe?
mazdeuce - Seth said:Pete Gossett (Forum Supporter) said:Structural batteries. When the trailer is the battery, and similar tech is applied to the tow vehicle, range will become much less of an issue.
Isn't the battery the most significant expense in an EV right now? I like the idea, but I don't like the idea of my trailer being $10k more expensive just so I can tow. Except then my trailer can also power my house. So maybe.......
10 years ago, the cost of a battery was $1000/kWh. So for the Volt when it came out, it's 16kWh battery pack, good for a 38 mile range, cost $16,000 of its cost to GM, which is why they were losing money on the first ones. By the time the Bolt was introduced in 2017, the battery cost had dropped to about $300/kWh, so it's 60kWh battery, god for 238 mile range, cost GM $18,000 and made it hard to make money at the $30k base MSRP. But by the time the '20s and '21s came out, the improved 66kWh battery pack for a 259 mile range cost about $100/kWh for a total cost to GM of a mere $6600! Meaning they could still turn a profit at the $25k average selling price of those years Bolts. Battery costs are coming down rapidly. We're probably going to see $50/kWh in the next couple years, as well as the new battery chemistries making them more powerful and faster charging at the same weight, or similarly powered at a much lower weight.
ProDarwin said:Still, for every F150 that tows a substantial load >150 miles, there are 300 F150s operated mostly in a <100 mile radius. I like how this is literally the first mass market EV Truck about to be for sale and the the first thing a lot of people say is "But I can't tow my house across the country with it".
The ONLY reason I own a truck is towing. I don't think anyone's saying EV trucks can never work for anyone, but given the demographics of this forum "how do I use it to tow my race car to the track?" is a very important question to answer.
I suspect that ultimately the answer is going to be the same as for gas or diesel trucks. If the charging tech and infrastructure were improved to the point that you could pull off the freeway and a convenient point and add a decent amount of charge (without unhitching) in 10-15 minutes then it wouldn't be an issue.
codrus (Forum Supporter) said:ProDarwin said:Still, for every F150 that tows a substantial load >150 miles, there are 300 F150s operated mostly in a <100 mile radius. I like how this is literally the first mass market EV Truck about to be for sale and the the first thing a lot of people say is "But I can't tow my house across the country with it".
The ONLY reason I own a truck is towing.
Those of us that tow on a regular are in the very small minority, especially with half ton trucks. MOST are used for light duty truck use, and with the demise of larger sedans, they are used daily driver commute and errand running use, even in urban areas. So EV truck towing is really aimed at the occasional user, or the fleet operator that is towing <10k lbs around in suburban environments (like landscapers and the like)
codrus (Forum Supporter) said:ProDarwin said:Still, for every F150 that tows a substantial load >150 miles, there are 300 F150s operated mostly in a <100 mile radius. I like how this is literally the first mass market EV Truck about to be for sale and the the first thing a lot of people say is "But I can't tow my house across the country with it".
The ONLY reason I own a truck is towing. I don't think anyone's saying EV trucks can never work for anyone, but given the demographics of this forum "how do I use it to tow my race car to the track?" is a very important question to answer.
I suspect that ultimately the answer is going to be the same as for gas or diesel trucks. If the charging tech and infrastructure were improved to the point that you could pull off the freeway and a convenient point and add a decent amount of charge (without unhitching) in 10-15 minutes then it wouldn't be an issue.
The fact that we still have both gas and diesel trucks shows that there is no One True Powerplant for trucks. If you're going to be towing, diesel will continue to rule. The EVs will likely take far more sales from gas trucks because there's a bigger overlap in their use cases.
It seems like inductive charging could be a solution for interstate travel too. If the charger was built into the pavement that would allow vehicles to travel nearly anywhere on the interstates(once a nation-wide system was implemented), and within 1/2 the vehicle's battery range off the interstates, without needing to plug in.
Pete Gossett (Forum Supporter) said:It seems like inductive charging could be a solution for interstate travel too. If the charger was built into the pavement that would allow vehicles to travel nearly anywhere on the interstates(once a nation-wide system was implemented), and within 1/2 the vehicle's battery range off the interstates, without needing to plug in.
I suspect that idea is about as viable as the "pave all the roads with solar panels" idea that was floated a few years ago. The cost would be staggering.
ultraclyde said:is anyone looking at braking regen from the trailer brakes?
That would require adding generators and controllers and such to the trailer.
Electric brakes are just drum brakes, with an electromagnet on what would normally be the emergency brake's arm. Apply power, electromagnet grabs the side of the drum, and the drag from that actuates the shoes.
Or we put the wires overhead. Which is a proven tech for buses and trains and trolleys. I suppose we could have a "charging lane" where vehicles could essentially perform in-flight refueling.
So many potential problems :)
I'm not sure how the engineering efficiency would work out but my initial thought is retrofit brake/generator on the trailer and power cable feed to the truck. Bolts on in place of standardized drum brake systems. Low/no drag generator/alternator that generates energy to send directly to the truck for immediate use. Also a way for it to apply resistance for re-gen braking or still have a std type brake (drum outside with cooling fins and alternator inner area. IF and it added little or no rolling resistance then it could increase range because its supplementing power to the truck without additional weight of battery and motor on the trailer itself.
Simple, relatively cheap. Any trailer can be converted
In reply to asphalt_gundam :
We're talking about exactly that in the other truck EV thread. I imagined bolt-in fully-integrated axles that can retrofit any trailer. I would think being able to control the trailer axle regen/accel could do a lot to stabilize the towing rig if programmed properly.
Chris_V said:mazdeuce - Seth said:Pete Gossett (Forum Supporter) said:Structural batteries. When the trailer is the battery, and similar tech is applied to the tow vehicle, range will become much less of an issue.
Isn't the battery the most significant expense in an EV right now? I like the idea, but I don't like the idea of my trailer being $10k more expensive just so I can tow. Except then my trailer can also power my house. So maybe.......
10 years ago, the cost of a battery was $1000/kWh. So for the Volt when it came out, it's 16kWh battery pack, good for a 38 mile range, cost $16,000 of its cost to GM, which is why they were losing money on the first ones. By the time the Bolt was introduced in 2017, the battery cost had dropped to about $300/kWh, so it's 60kWh battery, god for 238 mile range, cost GM $18,000 and made it hard to make money at the $30k base MSRP. But by the time the '20s and '21s came out, the improved 66kWh battery pack for a 259 mile range cost about $100/kWh for a total cost to GM of a mere $6600! Meaning they could still turn a profit at the $25k average selling price of those years Bolts. Battery costs are coming down rapidly. We're probably going to see $50/kWh in the next couple years, as well as the new battery chemistries making them more powerful and faster charging at the same weight, or similarly powered at a much lower weight.
Can I ask where you're getting these $/kwh numbers from? Are these cell costs rather than pack costs? I'm seeing a couple of very specific commercial vehicles with huge batteries seeing $100/kwh as of late last year, but the average price of an EV battery pack was still $137/kwh in 2020, and it's not expected to drop to $100/kwh until 2024.
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