Evaluating Options for a New Tow Vehicle

In reply to 03Panther :

It's a term of endearment.  They'll always be Datsuns to me! 

In other news, that's good to know about the Expedition.  Adaptive cruise control is awfully nice.

I feel like I've had all the fun I can stand with diesels.  I don't want an old truck, so a pre-DEF diesel is out of the question.  I've heard nothing but bad things about the Ecodiesel from Dodge.  For newer diesels, It's not so much about needing to add DEF, it's that all the sensors and controls make it hopelessly complex.  Stuffing the sooty exhaust air back into the intake doesn't help either. 

I've looked at some Escalade pictures and I could probably live with that interior.  It still has the goofy column shifter that they pulled out of the parts bin, though.  Not that I have a problem with column shifters, but put some damn style into it, already.  But I could probably live with that.

On the Tahoe/Yukon front...  Is there any appreciable difference in GMC vs Chevy? 

In reply to wae :

IIRC, on GMC Denali trim means AWD, others are available with 4WD.  At least I think that is the way it was when I was looking at GMT800/900 trucks.  

GMC trucks have twice as many engineers.

Chevrolet engineers design the truck.

GMC engineers design the grille and badges. 

So it's not like a GMC has more sound deadening or anything?

In reply to wae :

No, they're pretty much the exact same truck if you compare equal trim levels.

ShawnG said:

GMC trucks have twice as many engineers.

Chevrolet engineers design the truck.

GMC engineers design the grille and badges. 

I thought the Chebby eng-ineeres designed them, too

Or the GM marketers, at least!

Well...  I went to a local dealer at lunch today since they were advertising a QX80 in Hermosa Blue with under 70k on the clock.  But when I got there, they went to pull it around and then came back and told me that it had just been traded in recently and it was getting a new bumper in their collision shop.  So this vehicle search has not started in the most auspicious way...

Ecoboost towing datapoint: took a 3.5EB out west with the 10 speed auto behind it. 2 guys, a 6x12 V nose trailer with 2 dirt bikes, and all the dirt bike gear and tools to go with it. Not a major load, probably 2500 lbs total. Driving from Indiana to Wyoming and back, we got 9.8 mpg. The truck towed great and overall was a pleasure to drive, but my 8.1 suburban on the same trip with the same trailer the year prior got 9.2 mpg. The Ecoboost only rarely used the top two gears, I seem to remember it generally running between 2000 and 2500 until we got to the mountains, where it never really needed more than 3000-3500 revs to get the job done. Nearly the same revs as the big block, just with more gears to get the revs down when we picked up a tailwind. 

Overall I was impressed with the powertrain, despite the gas mileage.

I'm not saying a GMT800 is the droid you're looking for, just that we've been repeatedly somewhat surprised by lower ecoboost economy than expected going out to races. We figured we'd get at least 11 and hoped for closer to 12 based on internet lore.

Hits absolutely zero of your wants, but I will tell you the 2.7T 4 cylinder in this little piggy gets down. 

Honestly, I'm a little less concerned about mileage and way more concerned about having something that isn't going to grenade on me.  Pretty much anything I buy is going to be a major letdown in that department compared to the real-world 18mpg I get in the Gl350 when towing and the 18-19mpg for 100% city driving.  Especially when premium unleaded is about a buck a gallon more expensive than diesel.

I also know that towing is going to be very dependent on what I'm towing - the open deck trailer with the car on it should net me much better mileage than if/when we get a travel trailer.  But even then, a class A with the V10 is only going to get around 6.5-7 without running the generator, so that's what I'm really competing against.

Granted, I haven't shopped for a car for a while now, but this is blowing my mind a little.  The salesman from the Chevy dealer just called and said he's got the QX80 all ready to go.  But I don't have to drive over there to look at it.  He's going to bring it to my house in about an hour.

I told the guy when he called that I had a hard stop at 1330 so naturally he showed up at 1305...  Overall, I really like the QX80.  This one is in my favorite color, has all the toys that I want, includes the hydraulic body motion control, and is surprisingly nimble for its size and has more acceleration that I'd expect for its heft.  This particular example, however, has a small ding in the right rear, both of the rear wheel arch trims have come unclipped somehow, the A/C was intermittent, and it makes a weird roaring sound that sounds like the fan is spinning up and spinning down and spinning up and spinning down over and over.  Given the price, I think I could let the appearance go, but the A/C and the fan thing are deal breakers.

Oh, and he's got another customer that is very interested and trying to put a deposit down on it.  \

Of course he does.

 I have a Lexus GX. It is by far the family's favorite car/truck in the fleet. It rides great and is very quiet. It has aged very well, I have only had to do maintenance on it.

 I don't think it would be the best vehicle for your needs. They are not the best at towing. An LX or Toyota Sequoia would be better. Gas mileage isn't what they are known for, if that's a concern you won't be happy. They are usually priced higher than their competitors and higher mileage. 3 adult sized humans in the middle is marginal, and forget anybody but children in the 3rd row.

If Lexus appeals to you but the down sides rule it out, a higher trimmed Sequoia might be something to look for.

I really liked the QX80 way much.  That Hermosa Blue is probably my favorite color that they put on any car and it's just beastly on the road.  The rep from the dealer called me back today and said that their shop said that the oscillating roar of (presumably) the cooling fan is normal (I doubt it) and that they sat there and had no problems with the AC.  I suppose it's possible I found some Konami code of playing with the recirculate button that disabled the A/C somehow, but I kind of doubt it.  He wants me to come and test drive it again, but I don't know.  Suddenly there's no talk of this mysterious customer that's trying to put a deposit on it.  As much as I want to think that I can handle anything it throws at me and I can fix whatever's wrong with it, (a) I basically don't want to and (b) that's what convinced me that I should buy der Scheißwagen so I'd like to think I learned that lesson.  That said, it is somewhat under-market by a couple thousand and the "lifetime" powertrain warranty that they claim to throw in on the purchase of their cars doesn't seem bad (I asked for a copy of the contract to review).  I suppose I could see what the local Infiniti dealer would charge me to do a PPI on it.

Looking at GXes and Sequioas a bit...  There don't seem to be many LXes out there in the range that I'm looking to spend (20k-30k) without high mileage.  What's the deal with the camshaft and timing cover oil leaks and the coolant valley leaks?  Half the internet seems to say that every single Toyota V8 will have the problem, half the internet seems to think it's overblown.

How are Jeep Grand Cherokees?  Time bombs?  Looks like a couple of the trims are rated up to 6k lbs of towing.

In reply to wae :

Is the Lifetime Warranty this brand?

We had a chain here locally that peddled this for a long time.  The industry calls it Warranty For-Never.  Its not a warranty as much as it is a service contract.  This contract requires that you have EVERY service and preventative maint at the selling dealer.  Also have this service at whatever price the selling dealer dictates (ie: the $29.99 coupon oil change can not be combined with the "warranty".)  Miss a service and they void the whole thing.  They may claim that you went 4k miles for an oil change rather than their recommended 3k...no warranty transmission repair for you!  They will show that you did not follow the interval for the cabin air filter and that you did not get the filter at the selling dealership...no warranty for transmission repair for you! 

If you follow their guidelines you will either have thousands in annual receipts and even if you do, they will still find a way to deny the claim.  If they deny you for a claim just one time, the whole thing is over!  It's in their interest to deny your claim and they'll never have to speak to you about a claim again.     

Nowhere on the website is the full T&Cs but read between the lines on these FAQs they list:

• There is no catch; this program is provided to you at no charge. The only requirement is that you follow the customary maintenance outlined in your agreement and keep records of all customary maintenance performed.
• You are required to maintain your vehicle in accordance with the customary maintenance outlined in your Warranty Forever® agreement.
• Manufacturers only require a minimum level of services to be performed and will often list them in the owner’s manual. Your driving conditions and environmental conditions can demand additional service work be performed to keep your vehicle performing at peak levels. While you are only required to complete the minimum services outlined in your Warranty Forever® agreement, we strongly encourage you to follow your dealership’s recommendations when being offered additional services.
• Can I change my own oil?  No. All services must be performed by a professional service facility. This is to ensure proper documentation, as well as the workmanship of the services performed on your vehicle. See your Warranty Forever® agreement for complete details on customary maintenance requirements.

In reply to John Welsh :

Now, I'm not saying that it's a rock-solid thing that I'm going to put a whole ton of value in.  But I've read a few of these contracts before and this one is more in-line with the "decent" ones that you would pay for.  They do require that you follow the manufacturer's service intervals but "at any licensed repair facility".  It does have to come back to that specific dealer every 30k miles, though, for an "inspection".  They also claim that they'll do the oil changes for free and that they'll come get the car, change the oil, and bring it back, which would be nice.  They don't list any administrator of the contract other than the dealer itself, and the claims number on the contract is the main number for the dealer.  I can't imagine that they're underwriting it themselves, but perhaps they do all the denying of - I mean processing - claims in-house.

Their get-out-of-jail-free card is that it's limited to pay out no more than the purchase price of the vehicle over the life of the contract and they won't pay out any specific claim if it's more than the NADA value of the vehicle at the time of the claim (actually, they specify "at the time immediately preceeding the mechanical breakdown or failure").

I wouldn't pay actual money for it, but looking at two identical vehicles at the same final cost, that would probably swing the decision.

Holy crap, have I really been screwing around with this for two months now.  And with no end in sight!?  Oy....  The QX80 sold a few days after I drove it and I don't feel too bad about missing out on it.

We have decided that we don't really want to go with a travel trailer, so I'd only need to plan to tow about 5,000 lbs and not be loaded to the gills inside.  I've sort of looked at Ridgelines and Colorados, because a truck bed would be nice to have.

I came across a 2017 GLS with under 40k miles on it for sale at a Mercedes dealer outside of Philly listed at $31k.  That stretches my budget, but the CFO says that's okay.  It's got the premium package, lighting package, appearance package, driver assistance package, parking assist package, and the Harmon-Kardon sound system along with the heated rear seats, rear A/C, class IV hitch, and power folding second and third rows.  The packages get me adaptive cruise control, the adaptive headlights, Android Auto, and a bunch of other stuff.  What it doesn't have that I would like is the heated/cooled cupholders, the ventilated seats, and - most importantly - the heated steering wheel.  Yeah, apparently at an original MSRP of $85000, the original buyers didn't kick in the $250 for the heated steering wheel and MB wasn't throwing it in for free.  That's very weird to me.

That said, it seems like a lot of car for the money and a one-way ticket to Philly is only about a hundred bucks... I was going to call to ask a couple questions and see about getting the service history today, but I was afraid if I talked to them, I'd wind up on my way to the airport...

Tow 5000 lbs, capable of carrying the family?  LS-swapped Roadmaster wagon.

If you're scared of the DoD on GM trucks, that's only on 1/2 ton trucks, for now at least. 3/4 and higher don't have it. 

Buy the nicest crew cab 3/4 or tonner you can afford, Ford or GM. 

Saw you asked about the grand Cherokee: my dad just bought one of the 6k rated ones and his 5000lb boat trailer combo BULLIES the Jeep. He tells me it needs 3000 rpm to maintain 50 on the flat.

My question would be, is this just a tow rig or is it also your daily. 

If its just the tow rig and occasional use truck, id treat it like a tool. Make sure it does it's intended job very well and can be mostly ignored and cheap to repair. My favorite right now is the gmt800 with an 8.1

If its going to be an all around vehicle, then pick what you like, but I will echo what others have said, research the claimed tow ratings, because they are not all created equal

This would be my own primary vehicle as well as the family hauler when all 5 of us need to go somewhere.  The Mazda5 will hold all of us if needed, but it's a little tight.

I kind of guessed that the GC wasn't a good choice, but thought it was worth asking just in case.  Staying on the Mopar train, is the Durango any good?  I drove a first-gen back in the 90s and wasn't particularly impressed, but obviously I'd be looking at a much newer iteration.

Poking around at three-quarter tons, there are a handful out there with some level of creature comforts.  I got a little excited seeing some sub-70k mile Powerstokes, but I gather that the 6.4 is a bit problematic, and I've had my fill of troublesome diesels.  Another problem I have with the 250[0] trucks is that they've got a bit of a tough ride when they're unloaded.  It also would put a fifth wheel or larger bumper-pull back in play, but then I'm back to figuring out how I would get five people, two dogs, and a cat crammed in there.  Maybe with a cap and a bumper-pull, the dogs could ride in the bed, but I'd need a hell of a ramp to get them in there.

I've towed a slightly-too-heavy trailer/car combo with a '99 Ranger before so towing on the edge of the capacity doesn't really worry me too much as long as I'm under the written limit.  Staying with a motorhome, I'll be towing no more than a 5000lb combined weight of a car on an open trailer.

In reply to wae :

On paper, the Durango checks a lot of your boxes. I shy away from modern Mopars, but the Durango has been around for awhile and is a fairly developed, mature platform, so maybe they're not too bad?  Then it would be a matter of seeing if they tick all the lux boxes you mentioned.  

Agreed, a crew cab pickemup is going to be a tight place for 5 adults + 2 mutts. 

I drove a 2017 Lexus GX460 with 89k on the clock yesterday.  It's a lot more truck-like going down the road compared to the Mercedes, but the engine is just smooth as butter and it's very quiet inside.  Overall, I liked it a lot and can definitely see that being a winner.  The biggest hangups I have are the fact that adding Android Auto means a $700 Beatsonic module and there's no heated steering wheel.  But it is a really nice place to spend some time in and I would expect that it isn't going to stab my wallet in the back down the road.

I currently have a 2020 Durango R/T as my family hauler/ tow rig.  The combo of the Hemi and the 8 Speed makes short work of my 20ft car hauler and about 3000 pounds of car on it.  They have the Tow N Go package now that adds some of the SRT goodies that ups the tow rating a bit as well.  40K miles on it now with no issues.