So an event like this is more to get out on the track and get familiar with your car at a relatively slow or at least safe speed? More of a simple learning experience than a competition? Is it similar to a test-and-tune where you're just shaking out the bugs rather than doing any head-to-head racing?
This all sounds like it would be a very enjoyable time, especially if this sort of shunt is a rarity, until—
All about learning.
And most groups break the drivers down by experience/talent vs car speed.
Before I parted out my 1.6 Miata, I was in the fast group at Hallet HPDEs (they call it HST), which meant I was on track with BOSS 302, Z06s, turbo Miatas, etc.
In reply to Two_Tools_In_a_Tent:
And I believe in most organizations if it's your first time you would be in a novice group with controlled passing. It's not a competition.
Two_Tools_In_a_Tent wrote: This all sounds like it would be a very enjoyable time, especially if this sort of shunt is a rarity, until—
It is fun, you should try it. There are some inherent financial and safety risks, however contact incidents and major wrecks aren't as common as you might think.
I've seen a lot more carnage at organized club drives and cars n coffee.
After this guy pitched a fit on youtube, he never did show the damage to his S2K. Probably superficial.
At SCCA's Track Night in America events, they have three skill levels:
Beginner/Novice; They get extra training in their own driver's meeting, they get led around the course for the first session on track and they have instructors available to ride with them. Passing is only allowed in specific spots on course (generally on the straightaways) when waved by and the car allowing the pass has to slow down to ease in the pass.
Intermediate; Generally allowed to self-police and go out on course at speed, passing is the same as Beginner and instructors are allowed.
Advanced; Experienced drivers with more passing opportunities, generally in the common passing areas, wave by's are not required.
Other clubs and sanctioning bodies have their own rules for Track Days, High Performance Driving Events, Test and Tunes, etc. but they are often pretty similar, but it is important to know the rules and follow them.
Ultimately, track safety begins with the driver and these aren't competitions, so one has to be aware that while you're there to have fun and maybe, MAYBE, chase some friends around the course for bragging rights, there aren't any lap times, no trophies. So as a driver you need to be self-aware and when you find yourself pushing too hard, taking chances, getting frustrated with other drivers or generally driving poorly. Take a trip through the pits and cool off, get some distance from others. Its better to do this before they wave the black flag at you, or worse you end up like the two drivers in this example.
Two_Tools_In_a_Tent wrote: Was that an HPDE day? Wouldn't it be for high performance cars of pretty much equal horsepower and performance? Are the Miata and S2000 equals or would the Miata always be in the way at something like this? Is this sort of mishap a growing problem due to a disparity between the competing drivers and cars or is it just a random collision. Trying to understand and learn before I eventually head out onto a race track.
The HPDE's and track days I have attended all grouped drivers by experience, not car performance. I remember running with everything from Civic's and Golf's, to S2k's and WRX's. The fastest car/driver I remember running with was a C4 ZR1 very well driven by one of the instructors at the event. So while no exotics or serious race hardware, still a pretty big speed differential.
Beginner groups usually have instructors and are not really pushing the cars hard at all, so the disparity in speed potential usually isn't a concern. The intermediate and advanced run groups may get broken into slower cars and faster cars, but even then there will be a considerable range of both driver and car performance. In theory, these drivers should at least be able to drive smart, pay attention, and play nice...But obviously not everybody gets the memo.
When things are working right, not only will you see slower cars pointing faster cars by, but sometimes slower drivers in 'faster' cars pointing faster drivers in 'slower' cars by as well. In fact, intelligent drivers (regardless of experience) will generally let off the gas as necessary on the straight to point by a faster driver in a slower car, as you can learn a lot by following a better driver through the subsequent corners. It was kind of funny how much/long some of the 'more powerful' (by comparison) cars had to let off the throttle after pointing my Sentra by on a straight, just to allow me to complete the pass before T1.
I think I'm going to have to side with the S2K guy on this one. His speed was way, way faster than the Miata; He left plenty of room for the Miata and he was 2/3 of the way past the Miata that ran into his rear wheel after the apex. The Miata driver even admitted that he saw the S2K coming; he just didn't look long enough to observe the high closing rate.
My progression was a bit different than most. I club raced for 20+ years. After growing weary of the organizational logistics of mounting a small military campaign, i "retired" to track days and HPDE.
Most DE participants keep events in perspective, but there are the occasional wannabe's that let the red mist get the best of them. Whiny S2K dude is a wanker.
Even in wheel to wheel racing you can find significant speed differences between cars. Sometimes it's because they're running different classes at the same time and sometimes its because someone is just slow (or really fast). In all of those cases the expectation is for the slower car to run their line and the faster car to not be stupid about how and where they pass. You'll also see point bys in wheel to wheel racing. If you're not racing for position it just makes sense. The slow car can control the pass so that they loose as little momentum as possible and the fast car knows that the slow car sees them.
jstein77 wrote: I think I'm going to have to side with the S2K guy on this one. His speed was way, way faster than the Miata; He left plenty of room for the Miata and he was 2/3 of the way past the Miata that ran into his rear wheel after the apex. The Miata driver even admitted that he saw the S2K coming; he just didn't look long enough to observe the high closing rate.
As is often the case when two cars make contact if either driver had done a better job there wouldn't have been a collision. Under the rules of every HPD event I'm aware of the S2K driver shouldn't have passed there. You are correct however in stating that the Miata guy could have avoided the contact with a little more skill or situational awareness.
I'm even more concerned about Miata guy's attitude after the fact. In a Spec Miata race that little bit of contact wouldn't even warrant a discussion but this wasn't a race and his whole "I don't care can I get back out on the track" attitude was completely inappropriate for an HPDE. If I were the steward they would have both been sent home and the Miata driver may have been told to not come back.
As a follow up to my previous post: The reason for point bys and passing rules in HPDEs is that most often the slower cars aren't slow because of the car it's because of the driver. Driving at speed on a race track takes a lot of concentration and no small amount of skill and particularly for beginners it can be very overwhelming. It's completely normal to be focusing on your line and what the car is doing so intently that you don't notice other cars (or the flags). The assumption is that the faster car has a better driver who has the skill and experience to pay attention to something other than keeping the car on the track. That's why it's their responsibility to watch out for the slower car. That's also why I'm a big fan of the point by in HPDEs.
jstein77 wrote: I think I'm going to have to side with the S2K guy on this one. His speed was way, way faster than the Miata; He left plenty of room for the Miata and he was 2/3 of the way past the Miata that ran into his rear wheel after the apex. The Miata driver even admitted that he saw the S2K coming; he just didn't look long enough to observe the high closing rate.
Gee, what do you think the closing rate of a C5 ZO6, Viper, or BOSS 302 Mustang on Hoosiers is compared to a 1.6 Miata on R888s.
And yet never was I dive bombed in a corner.
kazoospec wrote: EDIT: Watched a little more until I couldn't stand it anymore. He also missed the number one HDPE rule - always give space to a car with multi-colored body panels.
That's a pretty good rule for life.
z31maniac wrote:jstein77 wrote: I think I'm going to have to side with the S2K guy on this one. His speed was way, way faster than the Miata; He left plenty of room for the Miata and he was 2/3 of the way past the Miata that ran into his rear wheel after the apex. The Miata driver even admitted that he saw the S2K coming; he just didn't look long enough to observe the high closing rate.Gee, what do you think the closing rate of a C5 ZO6, Viper, or BOSS 302 Mustang on Hoosiers is compared to a 1.6 Miata on R888s. And yet never was I dive bombed in a corner.
Seriously this. I can dive bomb into a corner like you cannot believe if the track is open. With a smaller low powered car like a Miata I am not going to do it though, heck not going to do it anything but an advanced passing day where I know the guys I am on the track with and even them.
Just wait for the straights flash your lights and blow by him if you have the power where it is safe to do so.
Not like .3 seconds off your lap is going to ruin the fun on a day like that. I bet the track officials had a stern talking to him before and after the event as he seems like that sort of guy.
APEowner wrote: I'm even more concerned about Miata guy's attitude ... his whole "I don't care can I get back out on the track" attitude was completely inappropriate for an HPDE.
From the Miata driver's point of view, it probably went something like this: "It's not bad enough that S2K Douche dive-bombed me and forced contact ... now I have to just sit here in the pits and listen to his E36 M3?"
Besides, this isn't TMZ. Don't get all up in someone's face with your camera and a steward in tow and try to trick them into saying something incriminating. Talk about it back in the paddocks at the end of the session when you've had time to cool your jets a little.
The group I usually run with will throw you out for passing without a point.
If I ever do a hpde with completely unregulated passing and this canoe is there, I'm going to ask for my money back and go home.
@ two tools in a tent - the purpose of HPDE is multifaceted:
The learning component whereby people can get on track and have an instructor give some solid feedback.
The guys who have a fast car or car they like to mod and drive it faster than you ever could on a twisty road.
The test day component, whereby guys like me bring there race car and do some testing.
As far as cars and driver level goes; I bring my stonkin 105whp Datsun I vintage race. I also instruct at these events. I along with some of the other instructors who have Spec Miatas run in the intermediate group. I routinely catch cars with 5 times the horse power as the drivers are less experienced or quite content to drive a certain pace. I also get caught by a friend with Super Miata (around 135-140whp) who makes his living as a driver coach. He's 15 seconds a lap faster......it always makes me laugh becuase he tells the guys he coaches about my doing 4 wheel drifts everywhere but I still get rapidly caught becuase my car is just plain slow. Note I run up front at vintage races.
I bring all this up becuase at most HPDEs you'll have this huge spread. my local 3.4 mile track sees lap time in our group that range from 2:39 to 3:20. You never get stuck behind a car for more 30-45 seconds as there are multiple passing zones. You get to a passing zone lift off the gas and wave people buy.
I mostly run PCA and they use point bys. We pass off line. Even in racing it is best for the car being passed to stay on line, this avoids any unexpected moves.
Back to Mr. S2K he's probably a good guy but he's totally wrong and let the red mist totally cloud his judgement. I've talked more than one driver off the ledge and his attitude is not uncommon.
It's been a few years since I've done an HPDE. Back then trophies & prize money wasn't awarded. I don't think that has changed.
Anybody notice he did what every soccer mom in the world does when an accident is immanent? He hit the horn.
As the Miata went wide into the corner and he dived in on a tighter line, I wonder if the combination of the Miata's line tightening through the apex and his starting to drift out was what caused the touch? I also noticed that in the video he shows a first pass of a yellow car, right before he gets to it, he has to countersteer a bit coming out of a corner. He was definitely driving at 9/10s for his skill level
4cylndrfury wrote: If you cant afford to punt it, dont put it on the track. S2k Owners are only tenths of a percent below Bimmer owners on the OMFG-YOURE-A-DOUCHE scale. Whiney dickstains who wear those powder puff tanks can GDIAF for all I care.
IDK, I point people by all the time, even during actual racing events. And I'm not the least bit worried about contact. Old e30s have nice metal bumpers....
That said, in 20 or so hours on the track wheel-to-wheel, I've never made contact with another car. I don't hit people, and if I'm about to be hit by a dumbass, I just give em space to go by. Our chump e30 has been hit at least twice (with other drivers driving), both times the other driver's fault. And both times the other driver was in a Miata....
I do think it's funny that everyone thinks that whatever marques on the track that AREN'T what they are driving are douchebags. Most e30 guys dislike Miata drivers (jealous of the turning!). I'm guessing the Porsche and Corvette guys think each other are douches. etc etc....
This is just like any motorsport. Rally? Douchey guys in their Evos.....duh.
It's the law of averages the more people in a particular type of vehicle the more likely they'll be an idiot in one.
This hobby is about the people, so who cares what you drive............besides if you're a douche you act like one whether you're in a Pinto or a Porsche.
wearymicrobe wrote:z31maniac wrote:Seriously this. I can dive bomb into a corner like you cannot believe if the track is open. With a smaller low powered car like a Miata I am not going to do it though, heck not going to do it anything but an advanced passing day where I know the guys I am on the track with and even them. Just wait for the straights flash your lights and blow by him if you have the power where it is safe to do so. Not like .3 seconds off your lap is going to ruin the fun on a day like that. I bet the track officials had a stern talking to him before and after the event as he seems like that sort of guy.jstein77 wrote: I think I'm going to have to side with the S2K guy on this one. His speed was way, way faster than the Miata; He left plenty of room for the Miata and he was 2/3 of the way past the Miata that ran into his rear wheel after the apex. The Miata driver even admitted that he saw the S2K coming; he just didn't look long enough to observe the high closing rate.Gee, what do you think the closing rate of a C5 ZO6, Viper, or BOSS 302 Mustang on Hoosiers is compared to a 1.6 Miata on R888s. And yet never was I dive bombed in a corner.
Yep, they would close in on me leading into a corner, tuck in behind knowing our cornering speeds aren't going to be that different, as soon we hit track out I've acknowledged them with a point-by and they scream past me on the inside line down the straight.
Never had an issue.
This was almost entirely the S2k driver's fault. The Miata driver needs to be a bit more observant, he could've dodged the S2k driver's unsafe pass attempt and noticed the black flag earlier.
My biggest problem with the Internet is that it gives people like this boy the idea that he's entitled to pitch his baby tantrum in public AND portray himself as the aggrieved party. On the internet I can just ignore it, but it's spilling over into real life now (as in, what happened in the paddock). Dude, you're driving around in the desert. Just keep moving over if you need more room.
irish44j wrote:4cylndrfury wrote: If you cant afford to punt it, dont put it on the track. S2k Owners are only tenths of a percent below Bimmer owners on the OMFG-YOURE-A-DOUCHE scale. Whiney dickstains who wear those powder puff tanks can GDIAF for all I care.IDK, I point people by all the time, even during actual racing events. And I'm not the least bit worried about contact. Old e30s have nice metal bumpers.... That said, in 20 or so hours on the track wheel-to-wheel, I've never made contact with another car. I don't hit people, and if I'm about to be hit by a dumbass, I just give em space to go by. Our chump e30 has been hit at least twice (with other drivers driving), both times the other driver's fault. And both times the other driver was in a Miata.... I do think it's funny that everyone thinks that whatever marques on the track that AREN'T what they are driving are douchebags. Most e30 guys dislike Miata drivers (jealous of the turning!). I'm guessing the Porsche and Corvette guys think each other are douches. etc etc.... This is just like any motorsport. Rally? Douchey guys in their Evos.....duh.
I think youre overthinking it.
A). BMW owners as a group (present company excluded) are perpetually referred to as self-entitled jackasses on the board. BMW is probably one of the most affordable "Upscale" car brands. Every toolbag making more than $25k annually can find a way to get a lease for one. So, youll often have a higher % of saucy dickholes in a group of 100 BMW 3 series owners than you may have in 100 Honda Pilot or Dodge Caravan owners.
B). All that said, I chose S2K & BMW for no other reason than that asshat has both.
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