Big wheels, big power, big thrills: Rear-drive, V8-powered domestics have become huge at today’s autocross events, and they’re welcomed by many different programs, including the Optima Invitational, Good Guys and SCCA CAM classes.
The rules place few restrictions on car type or prep, so the fields vary from one extreme to another: old-school rods and vintage muscle cars to the …
Just my opinion, and I'm not unbiased, but I think the 4th-gen is a good balance compared to other cars it typically competes against. In ESP trim, mine is 3,240 pounds and has 344 RWHP. All other things being equal, anything with more power is probably going to be heavier. Anything lighter is probably going to have less power.
Just an FYI on a finer point... It'd be Psalm 100:1 (not Psalms 100:1)
The entire book is a book of Psalms, each chapter being an individual Psalm.
If you substitute the word Song for Psalm, it's easier to see the proper use.
Sorry for being a "Grammar Nazi", but it's something I think is worth knowing.
Lets just be honest, the engines were underrated. The LT1 was the same as the Corvette's engine rated at 330 and the LS1 was the same as the 350 rating. I've had my 4th gen SS Camaro for almost 10 years and I love it. Its a great balance of power and cheap parts. I started modding from day one so I've always run in SM for auto which is okay when its other modded street cars but for any class prepped SM car I don't stand a chance. On the track I pass my fair share of new Mustangs and Camaros in my run group as well as Porsches, FRSs, etc, and of course give my fair share of point bys. Either way its no slouch and can keep up with any reasonable modern car. As much as I'd love to get a Corvette, I love the unassuming attitude of a clean 4th gen that I still get compliments on.
StuntmanMike said:Lets just be honest, the engines were underrated. The LT1 was the same as the Corvette's engine rated at 330 and the LS1 was the same as the 350 rating. I've had my 4th gen SS Camaro for almost 10 years and I love it. Its a great balance of power and cheap parts. I started modding from day one so I've always run in SM for auto which is okay when its other modded street cars but for any class prepped SM car I don't stand a chance. On the track I pass my fair share of new Mustangs and Camaros in my run group as well as Porsches, FRSs, etc, and of course give my fair share of point bys. Either way its no slouch and can keep up with any reasonable modern car. As much as I'd love to get a Corvette, I love the unassuming attitude of a clean 4th gen that I still get compliments on.
The lt1 was 300 hp the 330 hp engine was the lt4. Then there was the iron head lt1 that was in the impala ss,roadmaster,fleetwood,and caprice-260hp.
Had a lot of fun in my 01 SS 6M. The only thing louder than the exhaust (open headers, because youth) was the stereo playing Journey (volume turned up to hear over the exhaust, because blown, quality GM oem speakers, and youth). The only thing louder than the exhaust AND the music? The two idiots driving around in this black beast of a car.
Fun times indeed, although I am sure my hearing took a hit because of that car. Worth it, I'd say, for the memories and the stories. Plus, I got the desire to own one out of my system early. Surprisingly capable cars, it really is a shame that the material quality wasn't up to the level of the engineering, these would be $25k cars if the interiors weren't the obvious result of cost cutting...
Will said:Just my opinion, and I'm not unbiased, but I think the 4th-gen is a good balance compared to other cars it typically competes against. In ESP trim, mine is 3,240 pounds and has 344 RWHP. All other things being equal, anything with more power is probably going to be heavier. Anything lighter is probably going to have less power.
So you're about 100 lbs overweight and 50whp down from where an ESP 4th gen should be. 
landstuhltaylor said:Will said:Just my opinion, and I'm not unbiased, but I think the 4th-gen is a good balance compared to other cars it typically competes against. In ESP trim, mine is 3,240 pounds and has 344 RWHP. All other things being equal, anything with more power is probably going to be heavier. Anything lighter is probably going to have less power.
So you're about 100 lbs overweight and 50whp down from where an ESP 4th gen should be.
I have a hard time believing you're getting an LS1 with stock displacement, stock heads and stock cam to 394 at the wheels. If you can prove me wrong, I'm happy to follow the recipe.
As for the weight: Sure, I could cut some more weight from the car. It still has AC and the stereo. You want to do a lighter exhaust, 2-piece rotors, etc., the money starts adding up, though.
Will said:As for the weight: Sure, I could cut some more weight from the car. It still has AC and the stereo. You want to do a lighter exhaust, 2-piece rotors, etc., the money starts adding up, though.
Not familiar with class rules here, but it would be pretty quick to drop 100 lbs, at a reasonable cost, if you were to replace just the battery with a litium, or even something like an Oddysey, as well as a change in wheels. Again, not familiar with class rules in this case. Replacing the hood and perhaps the hatch glass with lighter materials would give some good returns I suspect, they are both quite large.
Meh, I had one of these from new. Engine was awesome, gearbox was awesome, suspension was great...
... and it was the most unreliable car I've ever owned. Thankfully the warrantee took most of the hit, at somewhere around $6000 worth of trouble in the first several years. Also, it was a heavy beast; one afternoon autocross practice cost me $500 in tire wear just for that single event. No thanks.
In reply to te72 :
I already have a sub-2 pound battery and CCW wheels. Hood/hatch must remain stock.
I owned a 2001 Trans-Am about about a year ago. It was the car I lusted after in high school. Besides going fast, making beautiful noises, and looking good parked in my driveway it may be the worst car I ever owned. The doors were a mile long, but ingress/egress was marginal. The interiors are kind of crummy. I couldn't fit a helmet in the car (I'm 5'10") without removing the t-top interior cover panel. I couldn't fit my daughter's child seat behind me. There was almost no usable trunk space, and if the tops were stowed there really was no trunk space.
For me it was a validation of the phrase "never meet your heroes."
In reply to kb58 :
Heh, I picked one up that was pretty well used, about 110k on it if I recall. Quite clean though, looked to be a one owner, well cared for car, at first inspection we thought a grandma must have owned it... until driving down the road one day, hit a slight bump in the road and the music followed suit with a rather startling BOOM from the 10" JL that was in a very well integrated box that I discovered was there. Turns out "grandma" must have really liked her music haha.
I think I drove mine for about 6 months in my time in Arizona, had a lot of fun with it, was the most powerful car I'd ever driven up to that point. Also in that time, fried the differential, the alternator crapped out on me, and the power steering never was quite right. Was a tad problematic, and that's just what I remember of it.
Will said:In reply to te72 :
I already have a sub-2 pound battery and CCW wheels. Hood/hatch must remain stock.
Well suggestions at this point can get a bit more expensive and / or less comfortable for a street car... I'm sure you've considered replacing the seat and removing the passenger seat? I don't recall the rear seats being heavy enough to even worry about, plus it's more weight over the rear axle, so I'd leave them anyway.
Second suggestion is one that I did on my Supra. Replaced the stock two piece steel shaft, with the often-failed center carrier bearing, with a single piece carbon shaft. Carbon weighed 11.8 lbs, compared to stock at somewhere around 30, 35 lbs? It was a substantial weight loss for relatively reasonable cost. Plus, less rotating weight, always good! =)
Then again, if you're in a competitive class, there's probably a formula for this chassis and not much point in trying to get too creative, right?
pushrod36 said:I owned a 2001 Trans-Am about about a year ago. It was the car I lusted after in high school. Besides going fast, making beautiful noises, and looking good parked in my driveway it may be the worst car I ever owned. The doors were a mile long, but ingress/egress was marginal. The interiors are kind of crummy. I couldn't fit a helmet in the car (I'm 5'10") without removing the t-top interior cover panel. I couldn't fit my daughter's child seat behind me. There was almost no usable trunk space, and if the tops were stowed there really was no trunk space.
For me it was a validation of the phrase "never meet your heroes."
This sums up my experience pretty well too. High school dream, they were the fast new car then. They really should have put the gas filler door on the passenger side, can't tell you how many times I had to either find an outside lane to fill up at, or just take up more room between pumps... or just climb out the often open t-top haha. Didn't wanna bang up the doors man...
Interiors definitely not up to the level of the rest of the car. Never tried the helmet thing back then. No kids, but I did stuff a few passengers in it, it was alright for shorter drives? Trunk, I have to disagree with you on, I found it to be cavernous, but I had just come from owning an NA and then an NB Miata, so take that for what it's worth.
Definitely one of those "hero" cars, unfortunately.
I have more helmet room in my 1999 Camaro (T-tops) than I did with the 2012 Camaro SS (no sunroof). Slightly better helmet room than the 2nd gen CP car I had as well.
4th gens do have good potential and there is plenty of ways to improve them. Since a lot of people have modded them, no guessing on what works.
In reply to te72 :
I've got a Sparco driver seat, Kirkey passenger seat, and Racecraft seat mounts. The rear seats and driveshaft can't be altered.
I've also replaced steel coil brackets and oil pan baffle with aluminum, lightweight crank pulley, etc.
As I said, there's weight to be found, but overall, this is a well-prepared car for the class.
I still want to know how to get 400 to the wheels from an ESP-legal LS1.
Driveshaft is aluminum on all the LS powered 4th gens anyways, so it's already pretty light.
I autocrossed and DDed my 98 for around 2.5 years and while it certainly had its shortcomings, they're really hard to beat on a performance per dollar basis. I too thought the trunk was pretty huge and helmet clearance was never an issue since I always ran with the T tops off. Actually, the Camaro was by far the most accommodating sporty car I've had (I'm 6'3".)
In reply to Will :
I'm guessing any other ideas I might have are probably either addressed in your case, or illegal for the class... Building my Supra to just have fun on track, class or rulebook be damned, so my ideas for modifications might not work in most classes, for better or worse. Better, because they would likely cause a bit of an arms race, or worse because they sometimes work out REALLY well but fall into that "that will never work" category that discourages innovation...
As for getting 400whp out of an ESP LS1, could it be that some cars are dyno'd closer to sea level than you are? Where I live, it's 6500' elevation. That same 400whp at sea level is only about 320whp here. Is ESP one of those classes where internal mods are illegal? If not, lighter components, porting can go a long way... If you're not limited on fuel systems or ecu tuning, running a car on ethanol could easily net 400whp on an LS1. Longer intake runners, ceramic coated manifolds and other creative heat management methods, oil selection... all small gains, but adds up!
If nothing else, some of those higher powered cars might be just living on borrowed time too. I've played with a few cars over the years that were stupid fast, but I knew I'd outrun them as soon as they blew up...
Well GRM comes through again. As some of you might know or recall I picked up a 96 SS just for CAM fun and a few HPDEs a year. My new fun thing is rallycross, so the 96SS will be used sparingly. I just got off the phone with Sam and ordered a few things and learned a bit about setting my F body up to perform better. The car is mostly stock but it has a few mods on it suspension wise, one that is really make the rear of the car far too stiff that will be corrected quickly. Companies that support GRM deserve our support too!
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