F1 2013

Keith Tanner wrote: My comments about Lotus and Kimi are based on their communications, primarily social media. It's all Grosjean, Grosjean, Grosjean now, when it used to be about Kimi. And, of course, the nice little radio message they broadcast last weekend. You don't retain the Kimi fans by yelling at him over the radio. And that's going to hurt the team.

C'mon, Keith. Admittedly, I pay no attention to social media so I can't I can't imagine what the fuss is about. Kimi is gone from Renault and everybody knows it. The chances of him going anywhere but a bar after another stint at Ferrari are nil. The man just burned another bridge on his way to an eventual but not too distant retirement.

Kimi fans will follow him to Italy and there cannot be a large number of Lotus fans disenfranchised because the team is already focusing on the guy they are keeping.

And more importantly, the guy they are keeping is really stepping up lately. If they can get another hot driver, I think they'll keep improving.

unevolved wrote: And more importantly, the guy they are keeping is really stepping up lately. If they can get another hot driver, I think they'll keep improving.

Lets hope it's the Hulk not Crashanardo.

Agreed that after a lot of (deserved) flack RoGro has really upped his game since Kimi announced he was leaving. Now, it shouldn't have taken that long for him to get on the ball, but maybe it was a case of him coming into his groove at the same time Kimi announced he was leaving, or maybe the team really started putting effort his way once they knew they were loosing the Superstar.

Adrian_Thompson wrote: or maybe the team really started putting effort his way once they knew they were loosing the Superstar.

This makes the most sense, or am I just jaded?

aussiesmg wrote:

Adrian_Thompson wrote: or maybe the team really started putting effort his way once they knew they were loosing the Superstar.

This makes the most sense, or am I just jaded?

I don't think your jaded and I don't see anything wrong with it either. Nothing can ever be 100% equal between team mates. They have different engineers, Mechanics etc. and I think it's natural that the team principals will gravitate more effort to the guy who's bringing home the results. There's a big difference between one guy getting preferential treatment and one guy being deliberately undersold. I think 99% of drivers complaining about special treatment of the other driver are sour grapes and they just need to man up and get on with it. This even applies to Mansell and Piquet, I always was and am a Mansell fan, and I have never liked Piquet, but I think Piquet just did a great job of mind berkeleying Mansell. The one time I believe it was in the late Prost Senna days at McLaren, and I don't think it was McLaren doing it. When engines started showing up from Honda with SENNA on the side, it's hard to argue that there's some secret sauce in there.

So Adrian, how do you think young Daniel Ricciardo will handle being in a Number 1 team as the Number 2 driver?

In reply to aussiesmg:

Not very well. I think he'll be another Perez.

DukeOfUndersteer wrote: In reply to aussiesmg: Not very well. I think he'll be another Perez.

Agreed.

In reply to aussiesmg:

I can't speak for Adrian, but I think Ricciardo will shine as #2. He's going to the best team with (arguably) the best car and he wants to prove himself. Even if he never beats Vettel in an outright duel, he can set himself up as a viable front-runner when his contract runs out.

Good results mean the other top teams will come courting his services, instead of him going begging for a ride.

Javelin wrote:

DukeOfUndersteer wrote: In reply to aussiesmg: Not very well. I think he'll be another Perez.

Agreed.

It's funny that both of you consider McLaren as a #1 team in 2013.

oldsaw wrote: In reply to aussiesmg: I can't speak for Adrian, but I think Ricciardo will shine as #2. He's going to the best team with (arguably) the best car and he wants to prove himself. Even if he never beats Vettel in an outright duel, he can set himself up as a viable front-runner when his contract runs out. Good results mean the other top teams will come courting his services, instead of him going begging for a ride.

I think he has done very well with inferior equipment this year, I am hoping given the chance he will fill Webber's shoes and be a front runner as well.

Maybe with the right luck he can win a Championship in a few years

Javelin wrote:

DukeOfUndersteer wrote: In reply to aussiesmg: Not very well. I think he'll be another Perez.

Agreed.

More accurately, I think he'll be a Heikki Kovalainen circa McLaren 2008...

In reply to oldsaw:

Well Red Bull certainly wasn't a #1 team in 2013 until they whined to the FIA enough to get the tires changed. I have a funny feeling that all of the teams that gave up on the current cars (McLaren, Ferrari, Mercedes) to focus on the 14's are going to do way, way better than this season.

I'm not convinced Ricciardo has got what it takes to be in a top line team. He out qualified J-E Vergne, but I think Vergne out raced him. Ricciardo tends to loose positions in the race from his start position, but Vergne on average gains them. Now, with the amazing pace of the RB, maybee he can keep people behind him, but if regularly qualifies top 4-6, but his finishes are 4-10 then I don't think he'll get a second chance. Ricciardo getting the big drive for 14 maybe the best thing that's happend to Vergne. If he's a one year wonder then Vergne is the next up and maybe DaCosta can get the 2nd Torro Rosso seat as I think he should have now.

Adrian_Thompson wrote: I'm not convinced Ricciardo has got what it takes to be in a top line team. He out qualified J-E Vergne, but I think Vergne out raced him. Ricciardo tends to loose positions in the race from his start position, but Vergne on average gains them. Now, with the amazing pace of the RB, maybee he can keep people behind him, but if regularly qualifies top 4-6, but his finishes are 4-10 then I don't think he'll get a second chance. Ricciardo getting the big drive for 14 maybe the best thing that's happend to Vergne. If he's a one year wonder then Vergne is the next up and maybe DaCosta can get the 2nd Torro Rosso seat as I think he should have now.

One thing to keep in mind, too, is his driving style vs. Vergne. As many of us have speculated, the reason for Vettel's success vs. Webber may come down to the way each driver handles the car. I do think there is a certain "style" to squeeze the best performance Newey's design that Vettel has and Webber doesn't. Not sure if it's just an overall style or something Vettel was able to learn that Webber wasn't, but I would wager that between Ricciardo and Vergne, Ricciardo's "style" is closer to Vettel's and why he got the nod.

If the above is true, RBR may very well be unstoppable next year, provided they're on top of the '14 changes. Given their competitiveness, I think those who believe the changes will have a bigger effect on RBR than say, Ferrari, will be sorely disappointed......

-Rob

rob_lewis wrote: One thing to keep in mind, too, is his driving style vs. Vergne. As many of us have speculated, the reason for Vettel's success vs. Webber may come down to the way each driver handles the car. I do think there is a certain "style" to squeeze the best performance Newey's design that Vettel has and Webber doesn't. Not sure if it's just an overall style or something Vettel was able to learn that Webber wasn't, but I would wager that between Ricciardo and Vergne, Ricciardo's "style" is closer to Vettel's and why he got the nod. -Rob

Great point. The car is built around Vettels driving style, I hadn't thought of that. I still think at the very least 13 will be a learning year at best.

Webber is obviously harder on his equipment. Smoothness and mechanical sympathy is always a hallmark of the true greats

In reply to rob_lewis:

Even if RBR is on top of the chassis development (and they probably are), what about power? The RB's are already not the most powerful out there, and Merc and Ferrari have both been working on their motors for years.

Javelin wrote: In reply to rob_lewis: Even if RBR is on top of the chassis development (and they probably are), what about power? The RB's are already not the most powerful out there, and Merc and Ferrari have both been working on their motors for years.

I don't see how anyone can know for next year. People keep saying that Merc are ahead, Ferrari are next with Renault behind. But how the hell does anyone know? No one is sharing power or torque figures. I doubt the Engineers are e-mailing each other results so I really don't get the speculation on power next year.

I'm not sure this year Renault are down on power, I think it's when running at the front they set the cars up for cornering speed, not straight line. Look at the few times Vettel has been way down the grid, they set the car up for top speed and passing power and he magically jumps up the speed trap charts. One think I am sure of now is that Ferrari have a hell of an engine. Look how hard a time some of the top guys have had getting past Hulkenburg. I'm not taking anything away from his recent performance. I really want to see him in the Lotus next too RoGro, but people have been having a hard time getting past on the straights (cough cough Mercedes) even with DRS. That car is fast in a straight line. It could be they are using the anti RB ploy and tuning for speed, but their overall performance suggests otherwise. This is all my opinion and I'd love to hear other views.

The interwebs is failing me know, but I seem to recall back in the discussions about RBR's KERS based traction control, that another team may have figured out (at least part) of Newey's secrets? If that was Sauber, then it would explain Hulkenberg's serious run for the front and difficulty in passing him. I don't know that it would related to the engine, because I guarantee that if Ferrari figured something out to make the Sauber car faster, it would be on Alonso's car.

And you're right, nobody knows who's engine is better because they're not talking. There are rumors that Ferrari and Mercedes will have an upper hand because they have an automotive arm to "test" V6 development, but seem to forget that Renault builds cars too.... Plus, RBR have always kept their secrets close at hand and rather than tout their efforts, simply keep quiet and kick the snot out of everyone else.

Unless Renault has totally dropped the ball, which I would assume not because I would guess that RBR could pick any other engine manufacturer in a heartbeat, RBR will still be the ones to beat next year.

BTW, I say this all with a very sad look on my face. While I appreciate and respect RBR and Vettel's dominance, I'd relish in another team finally knocking them down a peg.

Especially if that driver was Finnish and had an affinity for Vodka (even though he's driving for the red devils....)

-Rob

On other side note:

I think it's amusing that on this site (and pretty much around the automotive community) that everyone has their favorite teams or driver they want to succeed, but pretty much everybody likes Kimi.

Looking through all of these pages, for every positive about a driver, there's someone that thinks the opposite of that driver, but nobody really says a bad word about Kimi and often cheers when he does well.

Now, back to your regularly scheduled F1 discussion......

-Rob

Javelin wrote: In reply to rob_lewis: Even if RBR is on top of the chassis development (and they probably are), what about power? The RB's are already not the most powerful out there, and Merc and Ferrari have both been working on their motors for years.

As Adrian mentioned, the deficit has been pretty well taken care of which is why you don't here it mentioned anymore.

Adrian_Thompson wrote: Webber is obviously harder on his equipment. Smoothness and mechanical sympathy is always a hallmark of the true greats

I'll just observe here that when Schumacher and Barichello were teammates at Ferrari, it was always Rubens' car that broke during the race.

In reply to rob_lewis:

Kimi just seems to be a guy that loves racing and doesn't take the on track stuff personally. He just tells it like it is and if you get butthurt by his honest opinion then that sucks to be you. No drama, the situation is what the situation is. I respect that about him, and it makeshim quite relatable.

I don't really care who wins next year. I'll be watching the red cars and how that plays out over the season.

rob_lewis wrote: Unless Renault has totally dropped the ball, which I would assume not because I would guess that RBR could pick any other engine manufacturer in a heartbeat, RBR will still be the ones to beat next year. BTW, I say this all with a very sad look on my face. While I appreciate and respect RBR and Vettel's dominance, I'd relish in another team finally knocking them down a peg. Especially if that driver was Finnish and had an affinity for Vodka (even though he's driving for the red devils....) -Rob

With all new cars... and new engines... with new aero rules.... car development during the year will likely be the key to next years championship.

scene 1 for anti-vettel folks... vettel and alonzo tie for 2nd and lose to the Fin by one point.....

scene 2 for the pro vettel crowd: Newey design, driven to the max by Vettel... 2014 makes Vettel an ace