F1 2013

Oh, and talking of preferential treatment, how did Alonso NOT get a penalty for going 4 off and not giving up the place?

Stewards ruled that “Car eighteen was at the end of his stint with worn tyres and was fully committed to the turn as car three exited the pits. Telemetry confirms that car three was significantly faster, on option tyres, and had the advantage throughout the sequence. The drivers’ explanations were completely clear.

“Therefore the stewards determine that neither car could avoid the incident, and no advantage was gained as a result of the incident.”

http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2013/11/03/no-penalty-for-alonso-over-vergne-incident/

z31maniac wrote:

aussiesmg wrote:

Keith Tanner wrote: Good for them. I can't believe the FIA really fined Red Bull for Vettel acting like a human being.

This, really... Webber gets fined for hitching a ride after the event and now Vettel is fined for a dominant season's minute of celebrations, they are as out of control as (muffled flouder)

No, Webber was fined because it was 3rd infraction. Hitching the ride ( going on track without Marshall's approval) was his 3rd infraction.

The point is, why is that an infraction? It was after the race, they are grown men risking their lives for glory, yet the get fined for some fine sportsman like behavior?

aussiesmg wrote:

z31maniac wrote:

aussiesmg wrote:

Keith Tanner wrote: Good for them. I can't believe the FIA really fined Red Bull for Vettel acting like a human being.

This, really... Webber gets fined for hitching a ride after the event and now Vettel is fined for a dominant season's minute of celebrations, they are as out of control as (muffled flouder)

No, Webber was fined because it was 3rd infraction. Hitching the ride ( going on track without Marshall's approval) was his 3rd infraction.

The point is, why is that an infraction? It was after the race, they are grown men risking their lives for glory, yet the get fined for some fine sportsman like behavior?

I'm not saying I agree with the infraction, just pointing out the difference between what you said and what the FIA ruled.

aussiesmg wrote:

z31maniac wrote:

aussiesmg wrote:

Keith Tanner wrote: Good for them. I can't believe the FIA really fined Red Bull for Vettel acting like a human being.

This, really... Webber gets fined for hitching a ride after the event and now Vettel is fined for a dominant season's minute of celebrations, they are as out of control as (muffled flouder)

No, Webber was fined because it was 3rd infraction. Hitching the ride ( going on track without Marshall's approval) was his 3rd infraction.

The point is, why is that an infraction? It was after the race, they are grown men risking their lives for glory, yet the get fined for some fine sportsman like behavior?

When you do trackays they tell you to now walk out on a hot track. yet it is OK for Webber to do so because???

Seriously, was it THAT important that Webber get back to the pits that he couldn't wait until the track was clear or he couldn't wait until one of the guys on a pit bike gave him a ride back???

unevolved wrote: Stewards ruled that “Car eighteen was at the end of his stint with worn tyres and was fully committed to the turn as car three exited the pits. Telemetry confirms that car three was significantly faster, on option tyres, and had the advantage throughout the sequence. The drivers’ explanations were completely clear. “Therefore the stewards determine that neither car could avoid the incident, and no advantage was gained as a result of the incident.” http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2013/11/03/no-penalty-for-alonso-over-vergne-incident/

Except Alonso had the option to take his foot off the right pedal, and in other cases this year where someone had no option but to go off track, they've still had to give up the place.

Rusnak_322 wrote: Seriously, was it THAT important that Webber get back to the pits that he couldn't wait until the track was clear or he couldn't wait until one of the guys on a pit bike gave him a ride back???

It's been pretty clearly stated that giving the ride wasn't the problem, it was stopping on line and Webber walking across the active racetrack. If Alonso had pulled into the runoff, it would've been fine.

As for Alonso's non-penalty yesterday, that's what driving a red car will get you. Another driver for another team would not have gotten that deep of an analysis looking for an excuse to let him off. Note that this was only possible because they decided to wait til after the race to decide it, which itself is unusual with 20+ laps left to go.

FIA = Ferrari International Assistance.

Right now I'm loving the silly season more than the racing.

McLaren are set to announce their drivers soon. Button is set but it’s looking like Kevin Magnussen may replace Perez which I say is a good thing for MAgnussen. While Perez hasn’t excelled this year he’s been reasonably quick, close to Button (a WDC) but too erratic and has pissed many people off. If RoGro has had arguably 3 shots at F1 maybe Perez does too. I’d like to see at least one driver from this continent on the grid until we can get another US driver there

So this year’s retirees could be:
Webber, confirmed
Perez
Maldonado assuming Massa goes to Williams with his Brazilian money and Lotus take the Hulk. Especially as the PDVSA and all Venezuelan money seems in doubt.
What about Gutierrez? He’s really been schooled by Hulkenberg I can’t see him staying around if there are others with money.

Thoughts? Rumors?

Truthfully, when you get to the "lower" seats in F1, a lot of the moving has more to do with how much money they can bring rather than fostering new talent. I guess I'm saying that, at this point, the silly season gets more silly. When talking about the top teams, I think that the main seats are already spoke for:

1) Red Bull - Vettal and Ricciardo
2) Ferrari - Alonso (despite rumors, I don't think he's going anywhere) and Raikkonen
3) Mercedes - Hamilton and Rosberg
4) Lotus - Grosjean and, most likely, Hulkenberg.
5) McLaren - Button (probably only one more year) and hopefully Magnussen since he's pulled up from the ranks rather than buying his way in. However, money talks and McLaren has struggled this year, so they may look someone with deep pockets. I'd be surprised if they bump Perez and his cash after only one year.
6) Williams - Again a struggling team looking for cash. Maldonado has the cash, unless it does dry up. Bottas is just along for the ride. If Maldonado goes, I could see Williams trying to grab Perez and his money to stay afloat. If Maldonado doesn't go, but Perez is looking, they "might" grab Perez anyway and fill their coffers with cash. (Bumping Bottas out)
7) Force India - Although I'd like to see Di Resta brought to a bigger team and show what he can do, I think he's staying at FI. Sutil's experience and money will probably keep him there, too
8) Sauber - If the Hulk goes, they'll be looking for cash. Maybe Maldonado or Perez. Possibly a Russian. Gutierrez will stay but will need to step up to keep it more than a year
9) Toro Rosso - Kvyat and his Russian money replace Ricciardo. (Which is weird because Red Bull has so much cash, I would assume they don't need a paying driver, but then again, it is two separate teams, so maybe not...) Vergne stays
10) Caterham - Pic and Van der Garde stay for now, again, unless someone with money can buy their way in
11) Marussia - Does anyone care?

Massa has an impressive resume. Not sure how many of his sponsors he can pull into another team. I don't see him going too far down the line of teams as his pride wouldn't put him in a Caterham or Marussia, for example. Given his recent success, there's a good chance he can buy a seat at Williams, Sauber or Force India. I don't see him getting in a higher seat than that. Question is, will he settle for that or go elsewhere?

I'd still like to see Kovalainen come back, but I doubt his money can compete with the up and comers.....

Who'd I forget?

-Rob

From a couple of articles floating around I think the Venezuelan money is drying up which could leave Maldonado high and dry. I like your thought of Perez going back to Sauber, I hadn't heard that but it makes sense. They have already confirmed Sergey Sirotkin in the second seat, but I'm now hearing rumors he may get bumped to a Friday driver for a year before stepping up which may save Gutierrez, or they may bring in another up and comer. Gutierrez has done nothing to deserve the drive this year.

I do care about Marussia. I really like Caterham being 'more' of a British team, but I can't help root for Max Chilton. Don't forget Bianchi was supposed to be the second coming, at the start of the season he was really handing it to Chilton, but Chilton has really stepped up. He's out qualified and out raced Bianchi on a couple of occasions. Bianchi has been a reserve / /Friday driver for Ferrari and Force India for a couple of years and lots of people think he's got a bright future. For Max to be getting on his level with less overall experience I think has earned him a place on the grid next year. There is absolutely ZERO Brit bias in this post I assure you! Honest

Hasn't Sauber already said Sirotkin was going to get a seat next year assuming the FIA approves his Super LIcense.

I'm with you guys, the silly season has been way, way more entertaining than the actual racing.

Is it just me, or has Massa really been kicking some butt lately? He's been qualifying better and racing harder than Alonso. I'd love to see him get a redemption shot somewhere. The rumors keep saying Williams, but I think there's a more obvious choice: McLaren. Think about it, still a top team, they need another consistent points finisher, Perez hasn't worked out, and they have a 1-year transition before getting Honda. Massa would bring money, some stability, and some guaranteed points to a team that's suddenly fighting Sauber and Force India instead of Red Bull and Ferrari. Magnussen gets a year as reserve/test driver to learn from two masters, too.

I don't see Maldonado getting a seat next season. The money issue is real and he hasn't been good. No money and no (relative) talent? Out the door for you!

Javelin wrote: I'm with you guys, the silly season has been way, way more entertaining than the actual racing. Is it just me, or has Massa really been kicking some butt lately? He's been qualifying better and racing harder than Alonso. I'd love to see him get a redemption shot somewhere. The rumors keep saying Williams, but I think there's a more obvious choice: McLaren. Think about it, still a top team, they need another consistent points finisher, Perez hasn't worked out, and they have a 1-year transition before getting Honda. Massa would bring money, some stability, and some guaranteed points to a team that's suddenly fighting Sauber and Force India instead of Red Bull and Ferrari. Magnussen gets a year as reserve/test driver to learn from two masters, too. I don't see Maldonado getting a seat next season. The money issue is real and he hasn't been good. No money and no (relative) talent? Out the door for you!

I don't always agree with everything you say Jav, but that is a damn good point. Everyone is saying Massa has raised some serious Brazilian coin, and that could make sense.

The qualifying record this year is very close 9 to Alonso, 8 to Massa so far

I hope Massa gets another shot as well, the guy can drive, we know that. But he was never going to get much support once FAlonso showed up.

In reply to Adrian_Thompson:

The serious coin that Massa is reportedly getting is PetroBas. Which is interesting since he's been sponored by Royal Dutch Shell for quite a while now.

being that PetroBas is one of the biggest oil companies, now, I think that's why he's the best guess for Williams. can totally pay for his ride.

As for his current driving, which is fast... here are two lines of thought that neither are that great for him.
1) Where has this been for the past year and a half?

or

2) if this is just ignoring the team aspect of being in Ferrari, will he be a good teammate?

2 is much more likley than 1, and probably more acceptable since Alonso isn't exacly known as a great teammate.

In reply to alfadriver:

I'm admittedly not very current, but apart from a vague sense of unease at Red Bull from time to time, does any team outside of Ferrari attempt to dictate driver ordering within the team so forcefully? Would any other team care as much about that?

Hoping that it is 2, and that for all these reasons it doesn't make life difficult for him...

ransom wrote: In reply to alfadriver: I'm admittedly not very current, but apart from a vague sense of unease at Red Bull from time to time, does any team outside of Ferrari attempt to dictate driver ordering within the team so forcefully? Would any other team care as much about that? Hoping that it is 2, and that for all these reasons it doesn't make life difficult for him...

That's a good question- the "team" part of Ferrari has been obvious with Shumcacher/Barrichello and Alonso/Massa. We've seen Rubens and Fillipe both have great weekends only to give them away. We also know that Fernando isn't exaclty a great teammate- see McLaren AND Renault.

If it were 1- as a team owner, I would be really cautious about that. He's lived off of Ferrari for years, and almost won a driving title. So he should not have been sandbagging it. Since most of this revival was after the anouncment of Kimi moving back to Ferrari, it's got to be 2.

And being that it's BOTH Ferrari and Alonso, well. On the other hand, Rubens didn't exacly light up the circuit when he left Ferrari. So...

We'll see.

In reply to alfadriver:

He pulled over for Alonso this week, did he not? He's still the consummate teammate. He definitely had a drop-off after the accident a few years ago, but he's come charging back pretty hard core. That and he's actually likeable.

In reply to Javelin:

I would not exactly call that pulling over.

If he's really driving better, why did it take the loss of his seat for him to actually drive better? If that's the case, I would never hire him- spend a lot of money, and have a driver who is a better #2?

That's why I think it's more about driving on his own.

No he didn't pull over for Alonso, Alonso made a banzai move out of the pits and back onto the track and as a result went 4 off but didn’t' give up the place. That wasn't Massa giving way, it was FIA living up to the old Ferrari International Assistance label

In reply to Adrian_Thompson:

I don't get the races but I thought the crazy pit exit was passing not Massa?

Anyway, moot points, Massa is pretty good AND has lots of backing money, unlike Malonado who has neither.

I like Massa and would love to see him land a seat at McLaren. Button always seems like the nice guy that would get along with anyone, so I wouldn't worry about team friction there. Plus, I think Dennis would give, somewhat, equal opportunity to each driver. So, if Massa drove better than Button, he wouldn't have the team orders to step aside. And I think each have their own strengths, so they are fairly equal. Plus, I don't think Button will be in F1 much longer and could see Massa showing his skills and developing under McLaren and McLaren looking for a supporting driver in the next year when Button retires.

I think Massa's wreck and Ferrari had a lot to do with his comeback since then. The accident was tremendous and took a lot more testicular fortitude to return than many others would have had. It happened in mid-2009 and Alonso was brought on board for 2010. I think the time it took him to come back and the obvious biased towards Alonso on the team had to be incredibly frustrating. Raikkonen was leaving, theoretically Massa would have been the number one driver at that time, but his accident and Ferrari hiring Alonso killed that chance. In defense of Ferrari, from a business perspective, it was a choice that had to be made. They weren't sure if Massa would come back and had to get a top driver in as soon as possible. I think that if Massa hadn't been in the accident, he would have been put as the top driver and Ferrari would have hired someone else to support him.
At first, they were on equal footing, but Massa struggled a bit and Ferrari started throwing more effort behind Alonso. Then the media started laying into him and questioning his abilities and (in my humble opinion) depressed the hell out of him, as it would anyone. I'm betting that behind closed doors, Ferrari was trying to keep up Massa's spirits, otherwise, he wouldn't have stayed for as long as he did. I think Ferrari bringing Raikkonen showed Massa that he didn't have to "tow the line" anymore and that's what you're seeing in his driving now.

Adrian_Thompson said: I do care about Marussia.

Understood. I just look at those levels less as a farm team to bring in young drivers and more of an advertising arm that will always lean towards money over talent. I wish it weren't the case, but as we all know, racing is expensive and they have to chase the money.

On a TOTAL side note idea I just came up with as I typed this. What if F1 allowed for three drivers per team, but only two race in the mains, with the third being an up and comer? The third driver could compete in a Friday/Saturday pre-race in the F1 cars, but having no affect on the main team. Then, all the teams have the advantage of actually developing a driver in their cars and worrying (somewhat) less about bringing in pay to play drivers. It gives the teams the added benefit of testing and developing cars too.
In theory, that's what GP2 is supposed to do, but there is a HUGE step from GP2 to F1 and the F1 teams really aren't involved. This would bridge that gap and give drivers with lots of talent, but not daddy's business money pockets to actually have a shot at the top rung while giving the teams a chance to really develop a driver (both in racing a soft skills) to lead the future.

-Rob

In reply to rob_lewis:

Well, much as I’d love to see Massa at McLaren the latest on Autosport is they are very close to re-upping Perez, so it’s probably moot. That being the case we’re back to the semi-solid rumor of him going to Williams. Who knows where Williams is going to be next year? We thought that 2011 was the low point. The team only scored 5 points (4 with Barrichello and 1 with Maldonado). Then in 2012 they seemed to be saved. Maldonado’s win in Spain, 76 points in the championship (45 for Maldonado and 36 for Senna) that was a solid 8th in the constructors 50 points ahead of Torro Rosso and 33 behind Force India. Now in 2013 they are dreaming of the ‘success’ of 2011, let alone 2012 with one measly point on the board. Next year with Mercedes engines and Pat Symonds can they do another U turn in their success? I’ve got a love hate relationship with Williams. They’ve had some great cars and great champions, but I hate the way Frank throws away drivers, even when they win championships for him (Mansel, Prost, Hill).

Back to Massa. I think your right; it took a lot longer to get over the accident than people were prepared to give him time for. He was always in a very different situation to Barrichello who was always contracted as a #2 driver. When Ferrari hired Alonso, Massa had arguably been the #1. He had the legs on Kimi and was world Champion for 15 seconds in 08 and outscored him by 22 points in the old 10,8,6,5,4,3,2,1 system, that’s like 65 points in today’s money. Then in 09 he had his massive accident and by the time he came back this punk from Spain was swinging his dick in the team. I think he has more to offer in his post Red purse career than Barrichello did, and I also like Barrichello.

I sort of get your idea of a third driver for the weekend. I like it, but it would make for a busy track with 33 instead of 22 cars on track. The big issue now is the teams that use Friday drivers take valuable time away from their race drivers. I think maybe have two extended Friday sessions for people who haven’t had a full time F1 ride with tires not coming from the teams race weekend allotment. That way as long as they don’t stuff the car it’s practice for them and the team without losing out elsewhere. Also with ticket prices going up and up and up its gives the paying fans some better value for the money. They may need a different car though so it’s not wear and tear on an engine, especially with the # of engines dropping to 5 next year. That may be too much for the fly away rounds; perhaps they could do it just for the continental European rounds to start with.

I do wish Bernie would remove his head from his ass and allow more than 22 cars though. 26 was always fine, never an issue with too many cars on the grid, although Monaco used to limit the # of starters to different #”s through the years. If the teams would stop shooting themselves in the foot by not agreeing to sensible ways to limit spending, more people could afford to play. Or If Bernie would stop being so berkeleying greedy and pay out constructers places down to 13 not 10 that would help too.

I just have a thing for the back of the grid teams. I used to follow the fortunes of Fondmetal, Zakspeed, Minardi, Osella, Coloni, AGS, Lola, Spirit, Brun, Euro Brun, Moneytron etc etc with a passion in Autosport. I followed all the up and comers through FF1600, FF200, Formula Vauxhall Lotus, F3, F3000 every week. I used to go and watch the ladder series when I could and saw JJ Lehto (Or Jyrki Jarvilehto as he was known when I first saw him in British FF2000), Julian Baily, Martini, Hill Jr, the late Paul Warwick, David Hunt (James brother), Stewart Jr all these guys. Everyone says no one remembers Ratzenberger except for the face he died at the same event as Senna. Not true for me, I watched him in F3 and the BTCC. From that time as a teen I loved the back of the grid guys. Head over to F1Rejects.com and waste many many hours reminiscing over hopeless teams and drivers who never got the break.

Expect something geeky coming on MArussia and Caterham tomorrow

Adrian_Thompson wrote: I just have a thing for the back of the grid teams. I used to follow the fortunes of Fondmetal, Zakspeed, Minardi, Osella, Coloni, AGS, Lola, Spirit, Brun, Euro Brun, Moneytron etc etc with a passion in Autosport. I followed all the up and comers through FF1600, FF200, Formula Vauxhall Lotus, F3, F3000 every week. I used to go and watch the ladder series when I could and saw JJ Lehto (Or Jyrki Jarvilehto as he was known when I first saw him in British FF2000), Julian Baily, Martini, Hill Jr, the late Paul Warwick, David Hunt (James brother), Stewart Jr all these guys. Everyone says no one remembers Ratzenberger except for the face he died at the same event as Senna. Not true for me, I watched him in F3 and the BTCC. From that time as a teen I loved the back of the grid guys. Head over to F1Rejects.com and waste many many hours reminiscing over hopeless teams and drivers who never got the break.

That website is awesome. I shall now waste time on it.