My wife hates all this feminist stuff because she says a woman's appearance and sexuality are tools for her to use to influence others and she doesn't want to lose that. She doesn't want society to change where she can no longer use her attractiveness to get what she wants.
I'm kind of <meh> on this change. I'm fine with "grid guides" as long as qualitative physical assessment isn't part of the employment.
I also don't agree with having "grid girls" or other similar positions is "natural"... unless you using an artificial restricted post-40's western definition of "natural". The reality is that every culture defines beauty differently, as does the role of women within their culture.
as for feminists... being one is a lot harder than it might seem. You need to have enough empathy to understand that someone women are going to make a decision that goes against your purported goals... and you need to do that while being aware of systemic cultural influences that encourage those decisions. it must be very frustrating, and then you frequently get mischaracterized as being crazy.
re:beautiful women on covers everywhere...
all that really proves is that people who fit the predetermined "qualitative physical assessment" have many more opportunities for employment... and as such, removing them from motorsports will have a minimal impact on them.
Being a feminist is the easiest roll to play in the entire world. Hard job? I’m a REAL feminist. I want EVERY woman to decide for herself what her destiny will be. It’s only difficult when you get the crazy notion that feminism means you get to decide what other women do with their lives.
loosecannon said:My wife hates all this feminist stuff because she says a woman's appearance and sexuality are tools for her to use to influence others and she doesn't want to lose that. She doesn't want society to change where she can no longer use her attractiveness to get what she wants.
Sounds like she wants to retain her "beauty privilege." What about less attractive women, is it fair for them to continue to be disadvantaged in the job market and society in general because of their looks?
ebonyandivory said:In reply to GameboyRMH :
No
To what, specifically? Would love a more detailed answer.
GameboyRMH said:Here's another way to look at it, how do you defend the existence of this job that's only open to women? Isn't that discriminatory? You don't need to be a woman to hold umbrellas and number cards and look nice and clap on the podium. If you accept that sex appeal has anything to do with a grid girl's job, then if this role is to continue in something resembling its current form, there should be some balance of grid guys to attract female fans and competitors, no?
what about attractive older men and women?
the reality is this selection criteria is much narrower than "attractive woman"
We made it to page 2 without a lock? Well done, folks! 
In reply to GameboyRMH :
How is it any different than somebody who is taller, smarter or healthier than somebody else? Life deals you cards and you make the best hand you can with them, why should anybody not use a gift they were given?
GameboyRMH said:If you accept that sex appeal has anything to do with a grid girl's job, then if this role is to continue in something resembling its current form, there should be some balance of grid guys to attract female fans and competitors, no?
Men don’t want this job. Boys, if left to do what their brain tells them, do not want to be a Girl Scout.
Men aren’t genuinely offended by jobs that are uniquely held by women.
The VAST majority of human beings understand and accept that women and men differ from each other in wonderful, amazing, life-sustaining ways. And there’s nothing wrong with that.
My wife is the strongest person I know. She’s also one of the smartest. And she can do ANYTHING she sets her mind to including working side-by-side with me building a deck on the house. And she’ll ALWAYS be better than me at several things because of her female characteristics. And she doesn’t give a E36 M3 that I’m better at several things because of my male characteristics.
And no, there shouldn’t be “grid-guys” just because there’s grid-girls. That’s a juvenile thought process.
loosecannon said:In reply to GameboyRMH :
How is it any different than somebody who is taller, smarter or healthier than somebody else? Life deals you cards and you make the best hand you can with them, why should anybody not use a gift they were given?
If you use your looks to get a modelling job, or your height to get into pro basketball, that's fine. If you use them to get a job as an accountant or something where there is no reason to require those traits, that's a problem and it's wrong to try to protect that advantage. "Smart" isn't so much of an immutable trait so it doesn't belong with the others.
ebonyandivory said:GameboyRMH said:If you accept that sex appeal has anything to do with a grid girl's job, then if this role is to continue in something resembling its current form, there should be some balance of grid guys to attract female fans and competitors, no?
Men don’t want this job. Boys, if left to do what their brain tells them, do not want to be a Girl Scout.
Sounds like some circular logic there. In the early days of business computer programming, the vast majority of people in that line of work were women, and look at it now. There's nothing inherently femenine about the work a grid girl does - and the girl scouts differ from the boy scouts largely in name.
In reply to GameboyRMH :
A private business has the right to hire the best person for the job and to pay them the salary they feel is appropriate.
If there’s a company that can be PROVEN to discriminate unfairly, then don’t do business with that company and they will fold.
When I ran a gym, would you have forced me to hire obese trainers? That’s an impractical hiring practice. My carrier isn’t a social experiment.
GameboyRMH said:loosecannon said:In reply to GameboyRMH :
How is it any different than somebody who is taller, smarter or healthier than somebody else? Life deals you cards and you make the best hand you can with them, why should anybody not use a gift they were given?
If you use your looks to get a modelling job, or your height to get into pro basketball, that's fine. If you use them to get a job as an accountant or something where there is no reason to require those traits, that's a problem and it's wrong to try to protect that advantage. "Smart" isn't so much of an immutable trait so it doesn't belong with the others.
Isn't being a grid girl a modeling job?
In reply to ebonyandivory :
actually, yeah, you probably should be hiring obese trainers... at least based on BMI...
https://www.vox.com/videos/2018/2/1/16960404/bmi-flawed-studying-obesity
GameboyRMH said:ebonyandivory said:GameboyRMH said:If you accept that sex appeal has anything to do with a grid girl's job, then if this role is to continue in something resembling its current form, there should be some balance of grid guys to attract female fans and competitors, no?
Men don’t want this job. Boys, if left to do what their brain tells them, do not want to be a Girl Scout.
Sounds like some circular logic there. In the early days of business computer programming, the vast majority of people in that line of work were women, and look at it now. There's nothing inherently femenine about the work a grid girl does - and the girl scouts differ from the boy scouts largely in name.
You are wrong. There is most definitely something inherently feminine about appealing to the majority of your male viewers.
When I was involved in motorcycle club racing (WMRRA, OMRRA) a lot of guys had their girlfriends or wives hold the umbrella over them on the grid because it was raining. Most were attractive women, some raced, some didn't. They all seemed to be having fun and were part of the club. I have seen many moms play the roll of grid girls at MX races for their kids, some of the moms were hot, and dressed in an attractive fashion. Women like to look nice, men like when women look nice.
I hope this doesn't trickle down to amateur racing. I would hate to see women who like going to the races and helping out, but who don't want to race, be shunned for wanting to play grid girl.
I also knew a woman who was a racer, even did some AMA Pro thunder. She was rich, like "I'll just go fly my plane down and pick up the used factory Ducati race bike I just had shipped in from Italy" sort of rich.
Her boy friend was about 10 years younger than her, GQ model sort of looking guy. He would often be shirtless in the pits.
I have no point to make here. Good day.
In reply to sleepyhead :
You ran a gym in the real world? And you decided to hire obese trainers? I’m respectfully guessing you didn’t. But when you do, please report back.
And I know I’m not discussing whether or not you can be healthy with a higher BMI. That’s not even part of the discussion.
In reply to GameboyRMH :
I have to disagree, you should use every tool in your toolbox to get ahead. Life and nature is set up for survival of the fittest and if that accounting job has two equally qualified applicants and one is genetically superior then why shouldn't that person get the job? I am not good looking or particularly smart and have had to work harder than others to get where I am and what is wrong with that? Is it fair? Well, no but life isn't fair. Nature isn't fair, we feed squirrels but poison rats.
It seems the girls themselves are not very happy with the decision.
In reply to ebonyandivory :
He's claiming that a ripped guy with low body fat percentage can be considered medically obese if BMI is the measurement. Many pro body builders are considered obese. BMI is stupid.
ebonyandivory said:GameboyRMH said:Sounds like some circular logic there. In the early days of business computer programming, the vast majority of people in that line of work were women, and look at it now. There's nothing inherently femenine about the work a grid girl does - and the girl scouts differ from the boy scouts largely in name.
You are wrong. There is most definitely something inherently feminine about appealing to the majority of your male viewers.
So do you WANT motorsports to be a sausagefest? If not, shouldn't there be some Grid Guys?
In reply to GameboyRMH :
It would be rather amusing if a female Formula driver had a well sculpted male model as her "grid guy".
In reply to STM317 :
And I totally agree with that but that has nothing to do with my argument which is why I wrote what I wrote. I was 6 foot three 270 pounds with visible abs and I’m paying a lot more for life insurance because I’m obese. So I understand the argument but as I said it has nothing to do with the discussion at hand.
GameboyRMH said:ebonyandivory said:GameboyRMH said:Sounds like some circular logic there. In the early days of business computer programming, the vast majority of people in that line of work were women, and look at it now. There's nothing inherently femenine about the work a grid girl does - and the girl scouts differ from the boy scouts largely in name.
You are wrong. There is most definitely something inherently feminine about appealing to the majority of your male viewers.
So do you WANT motorsports to be a sausagefest? If not, shouldn't there be some Grid Guys?
I find it odd that you jumped to that conclusion. I personally would rather stay focused on the debate. That question kind of did me in though, have a good day guys.
In reply to ebonyandivory :
You've been here long enough to understand that these things never stay fully on topic.
This topic is locked. No further posts are being accepted.
