Fast, reliable, and cheap... Pick any two.

Thoughts on the Mini Cooper S? They seem to be a bit cheaper than the S2K. As a reference point, there's an '03 MCS on CL, 91K, for $7750.

Weak points? Any "must-have's" for track prowess?

I know on the supercharger models, changing the blower pulley offers some quick and easy HP.

Greg Voth wrote: I would vote for a FC (2nd gen RX-7) with an LSX. You should be able to find one for under $10k pretty easily. One of the drivers on our Chump/Lemons team has a L33 5.3 in his backed by a T-5. Puts down 300rwhp and 325ish tq with just an LS6 intake, 5.0 fox body longtubes with LS flanges on it on an 87 octane tune. He is a good driver but the car just works well for track use. This option gives you a body style you like, a disposable shell if you wreck it and the power you still want.

If you want to check out some V8 powered RX-7s for sale, there are plenty in the classifieds at www.norotors.com. $10k will get you a LOT of car if you buy an FC body.

bigmackloud wrote: Thoughts on the Mini Cooper S? They seem to be a bit cheaper than the S2K. As a reference point, there's an '03 MCS on CL, 91K, for $7750. Weak points? Any "must-have's" for track prowess? I know on the supercharger models, changing the blower pulley offers some quick and easy HP.

If you're talking the R53, they are neat cars. I owned one. They have some issues to overcome, so you need to really dig the car first and then make it fit track duty.

Strut towers will get deformed the first time you look at an apex wrong. Think turn 3 at Road Atlanta. Ireland Engineering makes strut tower reinforcement plates that you can fit right after you hammer them back into shape with a 2x4 and 3lb sledge.

They have no camber. Again, the IE plates have ~1.25 degrees of negative camber fixed, or you can get fully adjustable stuff.

Rear will need a swaybar and lower control arms to address the camber.

Stock wheels weigh about as much as the ones on my F150. I think the stock wheels are like mid-high 20#s.

My MINIs traction control yaw sensor didn't like more than about 10 laps, so it would throw a light sometimes.

Windshields already suck, and will certainly be a consumable if it sees much track use.

BMW bushings.

The M3 is a better choice for the same money.

Assuming comparibly lightly modded with a decent driver and track tires, how would the lap times compare between the S2K, MCS, Miate, E36 M3, etc? Say for example, full course at VIR?

Speaking of VIR, anyone going to the NASA event this weekend? I'll be there on Saturday. Driving in the kart race that night.

Can't picture anything for VIR specifically, but I think you'd get three different groupings of times: I think the Mustang would be dragging ass behind everything else (ones of the era you're looking at, in stock-ish form, just corner like a dump truck and can't make up for it in a straight line, sorry), then the MCS, Miata and 944 would be close, then all the others would be close, with the Boxster leading the pack.

I'd stay far away from the Mini for track use. I have one.

Stick with the Miata or RX7. They are all relatively light, and a low center of gravity comapared to a sedan-ish type car like the BMW and Mustang. They have good balance, cheap consumables and are reliable (assuming you catch up with any deferred maintenance).

RX8 is starting to fall into your budget too. That is an awesome chassis.

The 944 is a nice fun chassis too but parts are more expensive and the car is a little more complicated to work on.

The Miata is going to be the slowest of the group at a place like VIR. If that is your track and HPDE is your game, you may enjoy a higher HP car or boosted Miata

bigmackloud wrote: Assuming comparibly lightly modded with a decent driver and track tires, how would the lap times compare between the S2K, MCS, Miate, E36 M3, etc? Say for example, full course at VIR? Speaking of VIR, anyone going to the NASA event this weekend? I'll be there on Saturday. Driving in the kart race that night.

Maybe your best bet would be to try to catch some rides in the different cars you're considering and see which one you like the "feel" of best?

z31maniac wrote:

bigmackloud wrote: Assuming comparibly lightly modded with a decent driver and track tires, how would the lap times compare between the S2K, MCS, Miate, E36 M3, etc? Say for example, full course at VIR? Speaking of VIR, anyone going to the NASA event this weekend? I'll be there on Saturday. Driving in the kart race that night.

Maybe your best bet would be to try to catch some rides in the different cars you're considering and see which one you like the "feel" of best?

Good suggestion, I will be there at VIR in my white E36 M3 #186 with the obnoxiously big wing.

For your budget, only two cars spring out to me: Miata or E36 M3/325i

S2k is too expensive, AP1s have weak retainers, you will want full safety equipment, square setup tires, fix the front control arm mounting points, and have a little money left over for race pads/rotors. And trust me, look into the S2k rotor issue, you will be cracking rotors left and right on track. Come talk to my good friend Maeng that tracks his S2k (itll be parked next to my M3)

Mini Cooper S- Unreliable, supercharger overheats, FWD, expensive parts

Miata - Cheap/fun/reliable. Seriously if you want track car on the cheap, this is it.

E36- I have to wonder if any of you have actually tracked any of these cars you are talking about. WRXs/Evos/LS1s are actually somewhat UNreliable on track. Great on the street, but track miles quickly consume these vehicles. This is where the E36 shines, replace all balljoints/bushings and aluminum radiator/thermostat housing (all can be done for under $750 DIY). E36 parts are CHEAP, aluminum raidator, 150, thermo housing, $12.50, OEM bushings cheap - RTABS $55, etc.

Aftermarket parts are expensive depending on what you buy. You want a fancy "Im a bmw guy" exhaust? Yeah, $1200, you want one that works for a track car/every now and then daily? $300. Great thing is, E36s handle immensely well with Konis/H+R OE springs and TMS sway bars. Under $1,000 total. No need for more power.

I owned and tracked multiple cars, Miata/E36 M3/C5 corvette each hit their respective parts perfectly. Don't go by what's reliable on the street, turns out it has NO bearing on what's reliable on track. Evos/WRXs/small-block chevys tend to fall apart.

I say - $5,000 96-99 M3

$300 VAC baffle (and safety wire oil pump nut)

$750 OEM bushings/balljoints all the way around/Aluminum Raditor/thermo housing/new thermostat

$1,000 Koni/H+R OE/TMS sway bars

$300 used exhaust on bimmerforums

OEM intake fine

$1,000 TRM C2s with 245 BFG Rivals/Z2s

$1500 Used Seats/brackets/harness/roll bar

$9,850 ALL IN.

DEAD reliable, everything to do laps around VIR full course of about 2:13-2:15s with a decent driver, better if you are real good ;) It's the safety/decent shocks/refreshing OEM suspension/square setup that everybody forgets costs money no matter what car. Any car over 100k should have all its OEM balljoints/bushings replaced for track use. Decent S2k would come in over 13-15k. Miata around 5-6k.

^Thank you for reinforcing my point about factoring in maintenance/safety/wheels/tires, etc.

Although I see you left off rotors and track pads.

z31maniac wrote: ^Thank you for reinforcing my point about factoring in maintenance/safety/wheels/tires, etc. Although I see you left off rotors and track pads.

Woopsies

Sorry, get cheap blanks off rockauto or brakeswap.com 30-40 bucks a rotor, then some PFC08s F/R for a total of $560.00 PFC08s last a whole season of racing for me, and E36s are easy on rotors.

Don't do the exhaust, or save some money elsewhere to get under $10k.

You make a really good case for the M3. Thanks for all the specifics. I love details. Just browsing the wonderful world of CL though, I'm not seeing a lot of $5k M3s. The ones that are close have a ton-o-miles, 160-180k. That's a lot of miles to start abusing on the track.

bigmackloud wrote: You make a really good case for the M3. Thanks for all the specifics. I love details. Just browsing the wonderful world of CL though, I'm not seeing a lot of $5k M3s. The ones that are close have a ton-o-miles, 160-180k. That's a lot of miles to start abusing on the track.

As long as compression/leakdown are good, I wouldn't worry about it.

Guy next to me races his M3, he pulled out his S52 with 210k on it after the last 3-4 had been doing HPDE/racing, and it still pulled good compression and leakdown numbers.

Only reason he pulled it was to put in a built 331 stroker motor.

z31maniac wrote:

bigmackloud wrote: You make a really good case for the M3. Thanks for all the specifics. I love details. Just browsing the wonderful world of CL though, I'm not seeing a lot of $5k M3s. The ones that are close have a ton-o-miles, 160-180k. That's a lot of miles to start abusing on the track.

As long as compression/leakdown are good, I wouldn't worry about it. Guy next to me races his M3, he pulled out his S52 with 210k on it after the last 3-4 had been doing HPDE/racing, and it still pulled good compression and leakdown numbers. Only reason he pulled it was to put in a built 331 stroker motor.

+1, my motor had 145k when I bought it, and turned it into track only immediately. Had 161k miles when the headgasket finally went. That's 16k pure track miles. The rod bearings were perfect. I wouldnt even blink at buying one with 160k miles, just prepare for a headgasket between 180-230k miles just in case. But E36 M3, that's with amost any car haha.

Isn't there an issue with shifter bushings and money shifts for the BMWs? Is that something that should be addressed, or is it more of a feel thing?

Keith Tanner wrote: Isn't there an issue with shifter bushings and money shifts for the BMWs? Is that something that should be addressed, or is it more of a feel thing?

More worn engine/trans mounts that let the drivetrain move.

I've read the same complaints about Miatas.

Bro's need to learn to shift correctly.

Just a quick look at the 5.3 L33 V8 RX-7. These vids are all on street tires.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iZkKpiW0CzI&feature=c4-overview&list=UUZ_VFbtlY3RUXT7b_GZHyWA

Talked to him yesterday. It is 300hp / 325tq on a mustang dyno. Purchased the shell for $300 and the complete L33 for $800.

Here is a sorted V6 RX-7 that makes about 200rwhp with a ton of spares. Asking $7500.

http://www.norotors.com/index.php?topic=9157.0

A side thought from the peanut gallery. At Lemons, what some guys are saying here is very true. a small block (although at Lemons we're mostly talking old-tech, not the LS1+) tends to fall apart on the track very quickly. For some reason not to be debated here, those things can double their original power output for pennies, do 100k street miles and hundreds of tough dragstrip passes, but 1 hour on a roadcourse has them falling apart.

The swapped RX7 sounds the sweetest to me, as a street car, but if I were looking for what you're looking for, I might look for a RX7 with the magical triangles intact. There are a few rotary guys on the boards who can set you straight, but essentially they don't break on the track. I've never seen one have any sort of reliability issues at Lemons, ever. Ever. The cars themselves are light, cheap, good looking, and obviously well supported.

There you have my vote. It will lap slower than an LS1 swapped version, but it will be just as fun and last a lot longer I suspect.

Actually, didn't a rotary powered RX7 win the last Lemon's race?

That said, the N/A RX7's are rather on the slow side aren't they? How well do the turbo versions hold up?

One thing that makes me nervous about a rotary is that I know very little about them. At least a traditional piston engine I understand haha.

bigmackloud wrote: Actually, didn't a rotary powered RX7 win the last Lemon's race? That said, the N/A RX7's are rather on the slow side aren't they? How well do the turbo versions hold up? One thing that makes me nervous about a rotary is that I know very little about them. At least a traditional piston engine I understand haha.

See this thread - lots of knowledge here:

http://grassrootsmotorsports.com/forum/grm/teach-me-about-rotary-swaps/34399/page1/

bigmackloud wrote: Budget: $10k for vehicle and mods Usage: Secondary vehicle. Plan to run HPDE's with it. Not ready to have a stripped out dedicated track car just yet, so I'd like it to be street legal. Maybe even something I could drive to work occasionally (ie, keep the AC). 6) RX7 - Gen1's are ugly and no HP, but lightweight, simple, and cheap. I just don't want to deal with a carb. There were a few years for the Gen1 GSL-SE with the 13B. Still ugly but FI and more HP. I like the Gen II models for aesthetics, but how reliable is a high mileage rotary motor? I'm open to and appreciate all input. Cheers.

1st gen. It's easier to put a 2nd-gen's front suspension in a 1st-gen than it is to put a solid axle in a 2nd-gen and the IRS in the second-gen leaves a lot to be desired.

I have 230 dead nuts reliable, streetable, daily-driven horsepower from a nonturbo 13B. Good porting to make the power and EFI to make it livable.

Knurled wrote:

bigmackloud wrote: Budget: $10k for vehicle and mods Usage: Secondary vehicle. Plan to run HPDE's with it. Not ready to have a stripped out dedicated track car just yet, so I'd like it to be street legal. Maybe even something I could drive to work occasionally (ie, keep the AC). 6) RX7 - Gen1's are ugly and no HP, but lightweight, simple, and cheap. I just don't want to deal with a carb. There were a few years for the Gen1 GSL-SE with the 13B. Still ugly but FI and more HP. I like the Gen II models for aesthetics, but how reliable is a high mileage rotary motor? I'm open to and appreciate all input. Cheers.

1st gen. It's easier to put a 2nd-gen's front suspension in a 1st-gen than it is to put a solid axle in a 2nd-gen and the IRS in the second-gen leaves a lot to be desired. I have 230 dead nuts reliable, streetable, daily-driven horsepower from a nonturbo 13B. Good porting to make the power and EFI to make it livable.

I say Knurled's RX7 recipe would make for a very fun, very reliable track car.

I do agree though that at first just show up in something - anything - and pay attention to what the other people are driving and if they are having to play Musical Brakes or other regular maintenance.

Kinda like when people ask me what to buy for rallycross and I always answer Neon. It's not the sexiest car for the money but they don't eat consumables, they don't overheat, they don't have gross handling problems, and they're still a hoot to drive. And they're still fairly inexpensive.

Really, though, it's good to drive what everyone else is driving just so that you have a paddock full of people who might have spare brake pads or an extra set of tires you can borrow or something.

z31maniac wrote:

Keith Tanner wrote: Isn't there an issue with shifter bushings and money shifts for the BMWs? Is that something that should be addressed, or is it more of a feel thing?

More worn engine/trans mounts that let the drivetrain move. I've read the same complaints about Miatas. Bro's need to learn to shift correctly.

Yeah, the classic Miata 2-5 shift. Doesn't blow engines, but it sure is hard on your lap time.

I've heard about money shift problems with 3-series BMWs, so while we had experienced track guys discussing them I figured I'd ask. I know they have more bushings in their shift linkages, and there sure are quite a few replacements on the market.

On a similar note - I know that the E39 is really hard on bushings, particularly one in the front suspension that resists braking forces. Same with the E30/36? Based on my experience with the (heavy and powerful) M5, I'd be tempted to change all the ball joints in the suspension as well. Really tightened the car up.

If small block Chevys have problems in a track environment, do small block Fords suffer the same fate?

PHeller wrote: If small block Chevys have problems in a track environment, do small block Fords suffer the same fate?

According to Murilee and his "data", the 302 fares somewhat better, but honestly, the 2.3 powered Mustangs end up being mostly as fast.