Fiat Spiders

OK, the fluff piece in the mag a couple of months ago, purusing of CL and the talk of the Spider turbo on the $2012 forum has go me thinking.

SSSsooooooo guys, talk to me about Fiat Spiders in general? It’s about the same size as a Miata, within an inch or so all the basics (wheelbase, length, width etc) are the same, they are similar weight, both have great free revving engines, IRS, 5 speed gearbox etc. Now obviously there’s 20 years difference in the basic design, but what is a good Spider like compared to an NA Miata? I’ve had a Miata before (Duh!) and I’m desperately saving pennies for a cheap new toy and the number of Fiat Spiders in ‘apparently’ good condition for less than $2k on Detroit Craig’s list at any one time is greater than the total cumulative number of Miata’s, MG’s, Triumphs, SAAB 900’s etc. The only thing that comes close is E30’s but not in as good ‘apparent’ condition. Now, I keep saying apparent as despite the pretty pictures, I have concerns about rust. So what are they really like? I don’t expect it to start and run flawlessly 12 months a year like a 90’s car, but I wouldn’t need it to do that. I’d be considering this as a typical GRM car. Sunny day use, autocross, track days, date night with SWMBO. How does it stand up for that use?

Woops. 124's had a live rear axle, not IRS.

The one I had was long enough ago that it had not had a chance get gobbled by the tinworm, so someone else will need to answer that.

The engines are actually pretty tough although not overly powerful by today's standards. The transmissions are pretty hard on synchronizer rings, the last time I had one apart they were still pretty cheap from IAP. To me, the shifter is way too long and the shift throws are as well, but a lot of people like them just fine.

They go through ball joints and tie rod ends pretty quick (like ~30k miles), again the parts are cheap. The steering wheel is angled like a bus for some reason and I wasn't bonkers about that, again that's a personal thing. The steering is recirculating ball with paralellogram linkage instead of rack and pinion, but mine drove fine and it never bothered me.

The electrics are 1970's Italian, prone to corrosion (like pretty much everything of the era). If you do get one, the best thing you can do for that is take a Saturday afternoon, some small brass brushes and some dielectric grease, clean and tighten every terminal you can get your hands on.

Fun little cars! Great for a date night.

I've never considered them because m wife hates spiders.

Curmudgeon wrote: Woops. 124's had a live rear axle, not IRS.

Teaches me to belive the internet! I assumed they were all live axle, but something on the net lead me to believe otherwise. Actualy live axle is in many ways a good thing. A properly located live axle is fine for my intended use.

Curmudgeon wrote: The one I had was long enough ago that it had not had a chance get gobbled by the tinworm, so someone else will need to answer that. The engines are actually pretty tough although not overly powerful by today's standards. The transmissions are pretty hard on synchronizer rings, the last time I had one apart they were still pretty cheap from IAP. To me, the shifter is way too long and the shift throws are as well, but a lot of people like them just fine.

NA Miata's aren't exactly the most powerfull thing with 4 cylinders these days either. How are Fiat twin cam parts prices over here?

I'd rather have one then a Miata. The engine is pretty sweet in my opinion and they are very neat looking. From what I have seen parts cost isn't terrible. Midwest Bayless and International Auto Parts should have most of the parts you need.

I am assuming we are talking 124 and not 850.

Edit: Personally I would rather have a Spitfire though.

93EXCivic wrote: I am assuming we are talking 124 and not 850.

Yes, I"ve had my fill of weired arse engined machines having grown up on a steady diet of Hillman Imps and derivatives.

Wonderful engines and gearboxes wrapped in a cotton candy shell behaving like it is in a rainstorm.

Between age and design, a never ending battle to keep going.

It's Italian, what else would you expect?

Customer of mine has a pretty nice EFI Pininfarina 2000 for sale here in Saskatoon- fresh engine a couple of years ago. She is looking for about $10K. I can give you her contact info if you want.

I bought one a couple years ago for all the reasons you mentioned, plus I love how they look, and sound, I cannot emphasize this last part, especially 1608 engines, but they all sound pretty close. Realistically you can get them to be very reliable but there are modifications required, I'll list what I've learned over the last 2 years restoring, modifying, and fixing mine...

Spider vs Miata Comparison:

My buddies all have NA/NB/NC Maitas and I've driven them all. As far as size, it's larger than an NA/NB (or at least feels like it) as there is ample width to the car, unlike say an NA, Alfa, MGB, Midget, which I was cross-shopping. You will learn to sit 'Italian' which basically means you're sitting on the floor with your arms at a funny angle to the steering wheel, at least I do at 5'10". I enjoy it more than a Miata because every drive is an adventure. I can't go anywhere without people coming over and talking to me about it, so expect some attention.

Handling is good for a 70s car, but it's nothing like modern cars, there's body flex, but it corners flat compared to larger 70s cars, and has some handling behaviors you will recognize as modern. Particularly when you get on it, it's very predictable.

Amenities are similar, without A/C, though later 80s cars can have it, but I've heard it's nothing great...

With the top up there's more space inside than an NA/NB/NC because there's a 'back-seat' though mine is long gone and it serves as a storage shelf, and maybe I'll build a stereo in there some day. If you want the top down, you'll quickly learn where Mazda took inspiration for the quickest, simplest folding roof in the world...

Mechanicals:

Brakes are 4 wheel disc but are so small and lightly boosted they won't stop you like a modern vehicle even if you mash it, but most of the time that's because the calipers need a rebuild, switch to ss brake lines to firm up the feel, some good pads and you'll be right as rain.

Transmission is a syncronized 5-speed with an un-syncronized reverse, so you'll learn quick to take your time when you want to back up. Also, watch for transmissions that 'pop' out of gear when in gear and unloaded, you'll need to rebuild if this is the case. Proper tension is also key to smooth shifts, too little and you'll grind, too much and you'll slip all day long. Also, the firewalls aren't well reinforced where the clutch cable goes through and they have a tendency to tear if they've lived in harsher climates where rust is a big issue.

Engines are great, even the late 70s 1800 smog cars can be made awesome by removing all the smog equipment. Personally I have a 1608 which is the rev-happy fun engine, not big power, and finicky when you fit a bigger carb, but damn fun. the 80s 2000 cars with fuel-injection are probably the best running, make good torque. The big things to watch are the timing belt which needs proper tension to keep cam timing (tricky the first time you replace it), valve shim clearance, which is easy to check and fix if there's a problem, and all the seals in the head of the engine since it's such a piece-meal head. For me, timing and fuel adjustments were my biggest hurdles to making the car run like I wanted it to.

Seals, just about every seal in this car (now i'm talking trans, diff, oil pan) was cork or paper from the factory, so even after you swap them out, expect some minor seepage, it comes with the territory, but if there are major leaks, get them taken care of fast. Some newer gasket kits are silicone/rubber which makes a world of difference, try to use these where possible.

Electricals:

Fuse block, double check it's all there, there are no melted wires (POs love to wire in stereos or DIY repair that damages things) and all the fuses are in-tact. Also check to see what works and doesn't. These cars aren't complex and the wiring schematics are in the Haynes manual in Black and white, or in color free online from Brad Artigue. I personally switched from the euro-style barrel fuses to ATO fuse block and fuses for simplicity. Most electrical problems can be traced to bad grounds, or dirty contacts which corrode over years of exposure. Early cars ground everywhere, later cars have a ground 'block' to put them all together. First thing is to clean all contacts, get some dielectric grease on there, that will help, alot.

Ignition, dizzy is simple, but older cars use mechanical points, there is a super simple $75-100 sensor that can replace this and make the ignition system one of the more reliable parts of the car, I highly recommend.

Alternators, have external voltage regulators, so if it goes bad, the only way to test it is on the car, but they usually don't.

Brown-wire fix. There is a problem with dim headlights and slow wipers, blinkers. It has to do with how the power is routed through the ignition switch, a simple fix is to add another larger gauge wire, it's documented all over so I won't bore you with details, but it will help many issues.

Cooling system:

Early cars have the T-stat in the head going to the radiator. These are fail-shut t-stats, which is bad. Later cars have a t-junction and an external t-stat, this is what you want to convert to, regardless.

All cars have the filler on the radiator, below the highest point in the engine/heater core coolant lines. The simplest fix is to go buy a t-junction (filler-flush T) and install it on the upper heater core outlet from the head to the fire-wall. This prevents having to jack the front end of the car up to bleed the system. I built mine from brass pipe-fittings from home-depot, $20, but it doesn't leak and will never crack like the plastic filler-flush Ts.

Radiators, are made of copper and tend to fail often, and are very expensive to replace, OEM are $500, to get it boiled and recored $300, to get it resealed can cost $100-200. I personally swapped to a universal 2-core aluminum and tossed the heavy old electric fan for a new light-weight ultra slim fan. I now have almost too much cooling, which is a good thing here in Georgia...

Rust:

The big one, check under the front along where the front sway-bar connects, if it's an older car with the battery in the engine bay (later 70s they moved to the trunk), check for rust near the shock tower. Expect rust under the valence between the hood and windshield where the fresh air cabin intakes and windshield wiper lives. There are 2 drain holes but they will rust, you can expect from inside the car under the dash laying on your back with a flashlight. Check the frame rails and the floor pans (pull up the carpet). Check along the bottoms of the doors (I just finished cutting out the cancer on the inside lower part of one door and welding in repairs, still have to fix the other, but it was very minor, no repaint on the outside, I've been lucky with mine). Check in the trunk, take out the mat and wood decking. Realistically if you want a Fiat, or any older car at sub $5k money, expect some rust somewhere. If you just want to bondo and paint, that's up to you. If it's only sheet metal (i.e. non-structural) and you don't know how to weld, I'd personally recommend investing in a cheap MIG welder (Hobart 140 springs to mind) and learn, it will serve you well, and really help the car. If there's holes in the frame rails, or any of the shock towers or severe rust in the floor pan area in general, I'd steer clear.

Summary:

I too like you started out here asking questions, cross-shopped lots of cars, and searched for over a year before I found this one and pulled the trigger. I personally think they're a highly underrated car and are tons of fun for very little $. You can get used parts over on the fiat spider board or mirafiori. If you want new parts there's tons of sources, AutoRicambi, Midwest-Bayless, Vicks, International-Auto-Parts, Mr. Fiat, Allison Automotive. There are many aftermarket sources and support is good. Just for reference I have less than $2300 in my car including purchase. The only things that I haven't restored is getting the wood panels for the dash, and hooking up the last few electrical indicators in the dash that were missing when I bought it. These cars are simple as dirt, and cheap to restore/fix, but hey, I'm a fanboi I guess.

Streetwiseguy wrote: Customer of mine has a pretty nice EFI Pininfarina 2000 for sale here in Saskatoon- fresh engine a couple of years ago. She is looking for about $10K. I can give you her contact info if you want.

That's going to be 5-10 times my budget when I manage to pull it together!

Raze wrote: I bought one a couple years ago for all the reasons you mentioned, plus I love how they look, and sound, I cannot emphasize this last part, especially 1608 engines, but they all sound pretty close. Realistically you can get them to be very reliable but there are modifications required, I'll list what I've learned over the last 2 years restoring, modifying, and fixing mine... Spyder vs Miata Comparison: My buddies all have NA/NB/NC Maitas and I've driven them all. As far as size, it's larger than an NA/NB (or at least feels like it) as there is ample width to the car, unlike say an NA, Alfa, MGB, Midget, which I was cross-shopping. You will learn to sit 'Italian' which basically means you're sitting on the floor with your arms at a funny angle to the steering wheel, at least I do at 5'10". I enjoy it more than a Miata because every drive is an adventure. I can't go anywhere without people coming over and talking to me about it, so expect some attention. Handling is good for a 70s car, but it's nothing like modern cars, there's body flex, but it corners flat compared to larger 70s cars, and has some handling behaviors you will recognize as modern. Particularly when you get on it, it's very predictable. Amenities are similar, without A/C, though later 80s cars can have it, but I've heard it's nothing great... With the top up there's more space inside than an NA/NB/NC because there's a 'back-seat' though mine is long gone and it serves as a storage shelf, and maybe I'll build a stereo in there some day. If you want the top down, you'll quickly learn where Mazda took inspiration for the quickest, simplest folding roof in the world... Mechanicals: Brakes are 4 wheel disc but are so small and lightly boosted they won't stop you like a modern vehicle even if you mash it, but most of the time that's because the calipers need a rebuild, switch to ss brake lines to firm up the feel, some good pads and you'll be right as rain. Transmission is a syncronized 5-speed with an un-syncronized reverse, so you'll learn quick to take your time when you want to back up. Also, watch for transmissions that 'pop' out of gear when in gear and unloaded, you'll need to rebuild if this is the case. Proper tension is also key to smooth shifts, too little and you'll grind, too much and you'll slip all day long. Also, the firewalls aren't well reinforced where the clutch cable goes through and they have a tendency to tear if they've lived in harsher climates where rust is a big issue. Engines are great, even the late 70s 1800 smog cars can be made awesome by removing all the smog equipment. Personally I have a 1608 which is the rev-happy fun engine, not big power, and finicky when you fit a bigger carb, but damn fun. the 80s 2000 cars with fuel-injection are probably the best running, make good torque. The big things to watch are the timing belt which needs proper tension to keep cam timing (tricky the first time you replace it), valve shim clearance, which is easy to check and fix if there's a problem, and all the seals in the head of the engine since it's such a piece-meal head. For me, timing and fuel adjustments were my biggest hurdles to making the car run like I wanted it to. Seals, just about every seal in this car (now i'm talking trans, diff, oil pan) was cork or paper from the factory, so even after you swap them out, expect some minor seepage, it comes with the territory, but if there are major leaks, get them taken care of fast. Some newer gasket kits are silicone/rubber which makes a world of difference, try to use these where possible. Electricals: Fuse block, double check it's all there, there are no melted wires (POs love to wire in stereos or DIY repair that damages things) and all the fuses are in-tact. Also check to see what works and doesn't. These cars aren't complex and the wiring schematics are in the Haynes manual in Black and white, or in color free online from Brad Artigue. I personally switched from the euro-style barrel fuses to ATO fuse block and fuses for simplicity. Most electrical problems can be traced to bad grounds, or dirty contacts which corrode over years of exposure. Early cars ground everywhere, later cars have a ground 'block' to put them all together. First thing is to clean all contacts, get some dielectric grease on there, that will help, alot. Ignition, dizzy is simple, but older cars use mechanical points, there is a super simple $75-100 sensor that can replace this and make the ignition system one of the more reliable parts of the car, I highly recommend. Alternators, have external voltage regulators, so if it goes bad, the only way to test it is on the car, but they usually don't. Brown-wire fix. There is a problem with dim headlights and slow wipers, blinkers. It has to do with how the power is routed through the ignition switch, a simple fix is to add another larger gauge wire, it's documented all over so I won't bore you with details, but it will help many issues. Cooling system: Early cars have the T-stat in the head going to the radiator. These are fail-shut t-stats, which is bad. Later cars have a t-junction and an external t-stat, this is what you want to convert to, regardless. All cars have the filler on the radiator, below the highest point in the engine/heater core coolant lines. The simplest fix is to go buy a t-junction (filler-flush T) and install it on the upper heater core outlet from the head to the fire-wall. This prevents having to jack the front end of the car up to bleed the system. I built mine from brass pipe-fittings from home-depot, $20, but it doesn't leak and will never crack like the plastic filler-flush Ts. Radiators, are made of copper and tend to fail often, and are very expensive to replace, OEM are $500, to get it boiled and recored $300, to get it resealed can cost $100-200. I personally swapped to a universal 2-core aluminum and tossed the heavy old electric fan for a new light-weight ultra slim fan. I now have almost too much cooling, which is a good thing here in Georgia... Rust: The big one, check under the front along where the front sway-bar connects, if it's an older car with the battery in the engine bay (later 70s they moved to the trunk), check for rust near the shock tower. Expect rust under the valence between the hood and windshield where the fresh air cabin intakes and windshield wiper lives. There are 2 drain holes but they will rust, you can expect from inside the car under the dash laying on your back with a flashlight. Check the frame rails and the floor pans (pull up the carpet). Check along the bottoms of the doors (I just finished cutting out the cancer on the inside lower part of one door and welding in repairs, still have to fix the other, but it was very minor, no repaint on the outside, I've been lucky with mine). Check in the trunk, take out the mat and wood decking. Realistically if you want a Fiat, or any older car at sub $5k money, expect some rust somewhere. If you just want to bondo and paint, that's up to you. If it's only sheet metal (i.e. non-structural) and you don't know how to weld, I'd personally recommend investing in a cheap MIG welder (Hobart 140 springs to mind) and learn, it will serve you well, and really help the car. If there's holes in the frame rails, or any of the shock towers or severe rust in the floor pan area in general, I'd steer clear. Summary: I too like you started out here asking questions, cross-shopped lots of cars, and searched for over a year before I found this one and pulled the trigger. I personally think they're a highly underrated car and are tons of fun for very little $. You can get used parts over on the fiat spider board or mirafiori. If you want new parts there's tons of sources, AutoRicambi, Midwest-Bayless, Vicks, International-Auto-Parts, Mr. Fiat, Allison Automotive. There are many aftermarket sources and support is good. Just for reference I have less than $2300 in my car including purchase. The only things that I haven't restored is getting the wood panels for the dash, and hooking up the last few electrical indicators in the dash that were missing when I bought it. These cars are simple as dirt, and cheap to restore/fix, but hey, I'm a fanboi I guess.

Very nice summary and I would have to agree with all of it.

All this knowledge had to be learned over a two year period. People get PHDs with less study effort.

Even though it is a hobby, I tend to count labor in all my car cost since my free time is both limited and valuable; worth the exact same as if I were working my real job. So the Fiat would have cost MUCH more than $2300

By comparison, the Miata version of write-up after two years would read:

"Stick key in side of steering column and drive"

The end.

NOHOME wrote: By comparison, the Miata version of write-up after two years would read: "Stick key in side of steering column and drive and I was bored to death" The end.

Fixed.

Raze wrote: I bought one a couple years ago for all the reasons you mentioned, plus I love how they look, and sound, I cannot emphasize this last part, especially 1608 engines, but they all sound pretty close. Realistically you can get them to be very reliable but there are modifications required, I'll list what I've learned over the last 2 years restoring, modifying, and fixing mine... Spyder vs Miata Comparison: My buddies all have NA/NB/NC Maitas and I've driven them all. As far as size, it's larger than an NA/NB (or at least feels like it) as there is ample width to the car, unlike say an NA, Alfa, MGB, Midget, which I was cross-shopping. You will learn to sit 'Italian' which basically means you're sitting on the floor with your arms at a funny angle to the steering wheel, at least I do at 5'10". I enjoy it more than a Miata because every drive is an adventure. I can't go anywhere without people coming over and talking to me about it, so expect some attention. Handling is good for a 70s car, but it's nothing like modern cars, there's body flex, but it corners flat compared to larger 70s cars, and has some handling behaviors you will recognize as modern. Particularly when you get on it, it's very predictable. Amenities are similar, without A/C, though later 80s cars can have it, but I've heard it's nothing great... With the top up there's more space inside than an NA/NB/NC because there's a 'back-seat' though mine is long gone and it serves as a storage shelf, and maybe I'll build a stereo in there some day. If you want the top down, you'll quickly learn where Mazda took inspiration for the quickest, simplest folding roof in the world... Mechanicals: Brakes are 4 wheel disc but are so small and lightly boosted they won't stop you like a modern vehicle even if you mash it, but most of the time that's because the calipers need a rebuild, switch to ss brake lines to firm up the feel, some good pads and you'll be right as rain. Transmission is a syncronized 5-speed with an un-syncronized reverse, so you'll learn quick to take your time when you want to back up. Also, watch for transmissions that 'pop' out of gear when in gear and unloaded, you'll need to rebuild if this is the case. Proper tension is also key to smooth shifts, too little and you'll grind, too much and you'll slip all day long. Also, the firewalls aren't well reinforced where the clutch cable goes through and they have a tendency to tear if they've lived in harsher climates where rust is a big issue. Engines are great, even the late 70s 1800 smog cars can be made awesome by removing all the smog equipment. Personally I have a 1608 which is the rev-happy fun engine, not big power, and finicky when you fit a bigger carb, but damn fun. the 80s 2000 cars with fuel-injection are probably the best running, make good torque. The big things to watch are the timing belt which needs proper tension to keep cam timing (tricky the first time you replace it), valve shim clearance, which is easy to check and fix if there's a problem, and all the seals in the head of the engine since it's such a piece-meal head. For me, timing and fuel adjustments were my biggest hurdles to making the car run like I wanted it to. Seals, just about every seal in this car (now i'm talking trans, diff, oil pan) was cork or paper from the factory, so even after you swap them out, expect some minor seepage, it comes with the territory, but if there are major leaks, get them taken care of fast. Some newer gasket kits are silicone/rubber which makes a world of difference, try to use these where possible. Electricals: Fuse block, double check it's all there, there are no melted wires (POs love to wire in stereos or DIY repair that damages things) and all the fuses are in-tact. Also check to see what works and doesn't. These cars aren't complex and the wiring schematics are in the Haynes manual in Black and white, or in color free online from Brad Artigue. I personally switched from the euro-style barrel fuses to ATO fuse block and fuses for simplicity. Most electrical problems can be traced to bad grounds, or dirty contacts which corrode over years of exposure. Early cars ground everywhere, later cars have a ground 'block' to put them all together. First thing is to clean all contacts, get some dielectric grease on there, that will help, alot. Ignition, dizzy is simple, but older cars use mechanical points, there is a super simple $75-100 sensor that can replace this and make the ignition system one of the more reliable parts of the car, I highly recommend. Alternators, have external voltage regulators, so if it goes bad, the only way to test it is on the car, but they usually don't. Brown-wire fix. There is a problem with dim headlights and slow wipers, blinkers. It has to do with how the power is routed through the ignition switch, a simple fix is to add another larger gauge wire, it's documented all over so I won't bore you with details, but it will help many issues. Cooling system: Early cars have the T-stat in the head going to the radiator. These are fail-shut t-stats, which is bad. Later cars have a t-junction and an external t-stat, this is what you want to convert to, regardless. All cars have the filler on the radiator, below the highest point in the engine/heater core coolant lines. The simplest fix is to go buy a t-junction (filler-flush T) and install it on the upper heater core outlet from the head to the fire-wall. This prevents having to jack the front end of the car up to bleed the system. I built mine from brass pipe-fittings from home-depot, $20, but it doesn't leak and will never crack like the plastic filler-flush Ts. Radiators, are made of copper and tend to fail often, and are very expensive to replace, OEM are $500, to get it boiled and recored $300, to get it resealed can cost $100-200. I personally swapped to a universal 2-core aluminum and tossed the heavy old electric fan for a new light-weight ultra slim fan. I now have almost too much cooling, which is a good thing here in Georgia... Rust: The big one, check under the front along where the front sway-bar connects, if it's an older car with the battery in the engine bay (later 70s they moved to the trunk), check for rust near the shock tower. Expect rust under the valence between the hood and windshield where the fresh air cabin intakes and windshield wiper lives. There are 2 drain holes but they will rust, you can expect from inside the car under the dash laying on your back with a flashlight. Check the frame rails and the floor pans (pull up the carpet). Check along the bottoms of the doors (I just finished cutting out the cancer on the inside lower part of one door and welding in repairs, still have to fix the other, but it was very minor, no repaint on the outside, I've been lucky with mine). Check in the trunk, take out the mat and wood decking. Realistically if you want a Fiat, or any older car at sub $5k money, expect some rust somewhere. If you just want to bondo and paint, that's up to you. If it's only sheet metal (i.e. non-structural) and you don't know how to weld, I'd personally recommend investing in a cheap MIG welder (Hobart 140 springs to mind) and learn, it will serve you well, and really help the car. If there's holes in the frame rails, or any of the shock towers or severe rust in the floor pan area in general, I'd steer clear. Summary: I too like you started out here asking questions, cross-shopped lots of cars, and searched for over a year before I found this one and pulled the trigger. I personally think they're a highly underrated car and are tons of fun for very little $. You can get used parts over on the fiat spider board or mirafiori. If you want new parts there's tons of sources, AutoRicambi, Midwest-Bayless, Vicks, International-Auto-Parts, Mr. Fiat, Allison Automotive. There are many aftermarket sources and support is good. Just for reference I have less than $2300 in my car including purchase. The only things that I haven't restored is getting the wood panels for the dash, and hooking up the last few electrical indicators in the dash that were missing when I bought it. These cars are simple as dirt, and cheap to restore/fix, but hey, I'm a fanboi I guess.

Now that's what I call an answer! Thank you. So this shows that they are realistic cars that can really be bought and used for less than Miata money and be a fair comparison.

To be fair I'm cross shopping (dreaming at this stage) between the usual suspects and these are creeping into the limelight.

I still amazed at the number on CL at anyone time, they must have imported them in massive #'s.

Most seem to be 80's efi 2.0L which is fine. The first think that would happend would be to loose the impact bumpers thought!

Raze, I just followed your profile to your car page then back to your photobucket account. Wow, nice car. Is there a build thread out there somewhere?

I've also had a 124 Spider and an early Miata.

I've actually had a few 124's now. Had is the operative word. I wanted to like them a lot more than I actually did.

The high points would be the engine and the transmission. Sweetest shifting box I ever stirred the stick on. The ratio's matched the engine power curve perfectly.

The low points would be the electrical system (headlights or wipers, not both), the rust (it eats the car), the steering (recirculating ball) and the brakes (more like faders). Inside, it was like Fiat couldn't decide to go cheap, or fancy so they missed all the good points of either.

One Miata. No one notices it. It doesn't do any one thing remarkably well. Instead, it does all kinds of things reasonably well. It handles well, it drives well, good gas mileage, etc. Biggest nit to pick imo is the remarkable lack of storage space anywhere in that car.

How bad is the wheel in action? I've sat in a few and I tihnk you caould make the steering wheel position more acceptable with an extended boss to move the wheel closer to you.

foxtrapper, I've never understood people saying there isn't much room in an NA Miata. When autocrossing mine I used to fit the following in the car:
4 R comp wheels and tires
Trolly jack
Tool box
Helmet and driving shoes
A weekends worth of clothes
Soft sided cooler with snacks and drinks for the weekend

On one occasion I also squeezed in a tent and sleeping bag too.

Admitidly much of this was on the passenger seat and I did have to remove some stuff to drop the top, then put it back in, but it was doable.

I'm used to small cars. Beetles, Spitfires, CRX, etc. The Miata for storage is the smallest I've ever had. How Mazda got the trunk that small in side, that took design work.

My post above makes it seem like I'm anti-124. I'm not. It makes a statement the Miata simply can't make. It's got far more personality than the Miata. If it's a car that tickles your fancy, get one and giggle away. Life's too short not to enjoy cars that are interesting.

What are the wheel options with the funny (4 x 108???) bolt circle?

NOHOME wrote: By comparison, the Miata version of write-up after two years would read: "Stick key in side of steering column and drive" The end.

Amen, but I wouldn't have had the experience, nor knowledge about every widget in the car. I'm an engineer so a Fiat's needy nature appeals to me.

Wheels are 4x98mm, get some wobbly bolts to make them 4x100 and enjoy a better selection.

Small tires are a pain to find in decent compound, 15's look funny unless you can get some very low profile tires.

Adrian_Thompson wrote: I still amazed at the number on CL at anyone time, they must have imported them in massive #'s. Most seem to be 80's efi 2.0L which is fine. The first think that would happend would be to loose the impact bumpers thought!

They did, and there are many, and many were kept as toys as many early Miatas were, so in nicer drier climates they seem to abound...

I would agree an 80s EFI would be nice, and I agree, loose the bumpers, they ruin the look of the car. You can back-convert to early chrome bumpers with some cutting, there are kits as well, or you can fill all the holes and run naked. There are also options for fog lights and other things to fill the bumper holes.

Adrian_Thompson wrote: Raze, I just followed your profile to your car page then back to your photobucket account. Wow, nice car. Is there a build thread out there somewhere?

Just what I have on my profile for now, I have more pics of the rust repair in my phone that needs to go up, and I should probably create a build thread, but before a few weeks ago, that part of this forum didn't exist except in the archives!

Adrian_Thompson wrote: What are the wheel options with the funny (4 x 108???) bolt circle?

They exist beyond OEM Fiat types: Steel with Caps, Clover Leaf, Iron Cross, Turbo. Aftermarkets like mine (dunno where they came from exactly), some basket-weave styles, Rotas, you can always fit Cromadoras or Campagnolo but they're $$$ think $1000 for a set of 4 but make the car look even better. My personal favorites are the 4-lug Alfa Romeo Ronals...

turboswede wrote: Wheels are 4x98mm, get some wobbly bolts to make them 4x100 and enjoy a better selection. Small tires are a pain to find in decent compound, 15's look funny unless you can get some very low profile tires.

Do wobbly bolts really work? ugh, I think I'd rather slot a set of 4 x 100's and cut a new seat lug seat to make it fir the 4 x 98 hubs.

Raze wrote:

NOHOME wrote: By comparison, the Miata version of write-up after two years would read: "Stick key in side of steering column and drive" The end.

Amen, but I wouldn't have had the experience, nor knowledge about every widget in the car. I'm an engineer so a Fiat's needy nature appeals to me.

I am in the same boat, only in my case the Albatross an MGB GT known as "The GT from Hell". Not once in 36 years of ownership has she not demanded some form of mechanical attention. Stuff wears out, and when your ride is a 40 year old classic, it is composed of parts that are all well beyond their "best Before" date. Same as expired milk; you takes your chances.

To those who consider the Miata boring to drive, I can only assume that attempting road-side repairs and walking forms a large part of what you call entertainment. I used to not mind that E36 M3, but now I am old and less patient.

Raze wrote: Amen, but I wouldn't have had the experience, nor knowledge about every widget in the car. I'm an engineer so a Fiat's needy nature appeals to me.

Ditto on the engineer, but I'd want a solid running car to tinker with as needed / running restoration as I know the truth of it is a full on strip down restoration would defeat my time and enthusiasm constraints and end up as another unfinished project.