Finalizing my challenge budget - couple questions

Ok, getting close to done with my budget. Here are my questions:

1. Do fluids count toward the budget? I replaced my brake fluid and rear diff fluid so far, and bought oil change stuff (but haven't done the change yet - ha). What about gas, or additives, like if I wanted to run a can of 'EFS Combust' or something (whether it actually helps or not, IDK)? I don't see anything in the rules that says fluids are free, yet I have 'heard' many people mention on the forum they are exempt. I guess you can argue that the car had brake fluid in it and diff fluid and oil and gas when I bought it?
2. I know shipping counts towards parts you buy, but what about parts you sell? Do I need to go into the detail of writing out eBay listing/paypal fees? Or can I just say I sold this for X dollars on eBay and here is the eBay page proving that? (doesn't matter much either way, listing fees we are probably talking about less than a buck and usually I have shipping paid for by the seller - but not always).
3. Finally, there are a couple things I scavenged off the car that I know I will use on other projects in the future. Can I 'sell' them to myself at 'fair market value'? In my case I'm talking about a couple of relays that came on perfect individual plugs that have harnesses and brackets, as well as some big rubber firewall/trunk grommets. I figure $8 for 3 grommets and 2 relays/plugs/brackets/harnesses. If I used this stuff on a future challenge car I would have to 'pay' out of the budget for it, right? I mean, in my head it seems fair but it could be opening up a big can of worms.

Hope this isn't nit picking I just want to be 100% legal.

i'm same boat finalizing stuff. i have some lost receipts and was going to FMV them at whatever price they are at the store i got them from, unless they still have a price tag.

i believe fluids do, maybe not brake fluid as that's a safety item. i put my oil change and a quart of ATF in my spreadsheet. for little stuff off the shelf like fasteners, wheel weights, and wiring connectors, i was just going to toss a misc amount in.

As far as fluids, they are free. You burn gas, probably a few oil changes, fresh atf, etc.... Nobody wants to be that guy broken down causing a delay in activities.

As to the other two, no idea. I figure since its for editorial content and fun, nobody is going to be such a stickler for having you calculate in shipping in sold parts. As to other parts, you can include them as misc it just FMV them to yourself. Not everyone has the same opportunity, to buy and sell, as others.

Rules no longer state fluids are free to the budget. Everyone assumes they still are, I would agree they should still be free.

Has anyone ever actually protested someone?

Fluids are free.

You can FMV parts to yourself.

I don't think I've ever heard anyone ask about shipping on parts sold.

It is neither a positive nor a negative to your budget- you didn't make money nor spend money on shipping. Although, if you sold it "including shipping", I guess you should not include the shipping.

Too picky. Nobody cares.

In reply to WillrunifChased:

I don't believe the rules ever did say fluids were free.

But they are.

I'll protest you if you don't count fluids.

Kidding....they're free, as is fuel.

I never saw it written, so I always count fluids (except gas & NOS), filters and plugs.

wheels777 wrote: I never saw it written, so I always count fluids (except gas & NOS), filters and plugs.

I read the rules back to $2011 and couldn't find any listing of free fluids. They should be included in the budget.

About the fluids, I also agree that since it is not 'expressly allowed' (using an SCCA mindset) by being written as free, I better count them.

Maybe I will send Ed a clarification note though, and I'll post back up here with his response.

Andy Neuman wrote:

wheels777 wrote: I never saw it written, so I always count fluids (except gas & NOS), filters and plugs.

I read the rules back to $2011 and couldn't find any listing of free fluids. They should be included in the budget.

It was in one of the old rules "discussion" threads about 3 or 4 yrs ago by Per.....

Fluids count.

Rules bulletin and details being hammered out now. Update will come soon.

EDIT: Fluids do not count for 2015.

Tom Suddard wrote: Fluids count. Rules bulletin and details being hammered out now. Update will come soon.

Ooops, just hit send on an email to Rick. Tell him he can disregard an email from 'Robbie'.

Thank you!

Brb going to use oil out of the used oil container.

What if you bought the car with good fluids and used them to the point of needing replacement? They are a wear item. Historically the rules and consensus have always allowed repair or replenishment of items used up in testing back to the cars purchased or built state without an additional budget hit.

MrJoshua wrote: What if you bought the car with good fluids and used them to the point of needing replacement? They are a wear item. Historically the rules and consensus have always allowed repair or replenishment of items used up in testing back to the cars purchased or built state without an additional budget hit.

How do you prove you bought a car with good fluids?

and who changes the oil on a sub 2k car right before selling?

along the same lines however, it would be pretty hard to prove the other side as well.

I agree with you though, if you drove the car 3000 miles since you bought it, you should be able to change the oil.

In reply to rcutclif:

How about:

-6 autocross runs and 10+ drag runs at $2014 challenge.
-18 autocross runs testing day 1.
-14 autocross runs testing day 2.
-6 drag runs drag testing day 1.
-5 autocross runs testing day 3.

Add to that dozens of around town and country road blasts and countless hours of idling.

No matter where our oil or brake fluid started, its done now.

Gas is a fluid.

If you have to include all the fluids used to "prep" the car, 2 years of ownership could get costly.

Yes, I'm being sarcastic.

I wIll wait to see the bulletin, but sure wish we were not having this conversation 1 week before the event.

MrJoshua wrote: What if you bought the car with good fluids and used them to the point of needing replacement? They are a wear item. Historically the rules and consensus have always allowed repair or replenishment of items used up in testing back to the cars purchased or built state without an additional budget hit.

Yep, no budget hit. Take any fluids you've used up during testing out of the budget if you end up changing them before the Challenge. Then, add the new fluids you bought in.

Brake fluid and gas and one other fluid will be exempt, btw. Let's wait for the final bulletin (I've written it, but need to run it through event department).

The thing is, it takes money to buy fluids, and fluids to race a car. Fluids aren't like tires, where there are a ton of used options that can be hard to prove. If your car will run the event on the terrible oil that came in it–good job, nice buy. If it won't, then buying the fresh fluids comes out of your race budget, and should be accounted for.

In reply to Tom Suddard:

I am quite certain that is the opposite to positions previously explained by staff, but I will let others chime in on that issue, and like I said, I will wait to see the bulletin.

SVreX, I apologize if different interpretations have been given here before, but it would be unfair to the many competitors who followed the letter of the rules to suddenly change them, and allow free fluids.

We've moved away from informal forum rulings, and towards updating the rules for clarity when necessary. This approach is a tad less personal (sorry, though we still love you), but the goal is to make this event more accessible to new people, and rules based on hearsay and late-night decisions by a single person make it hard to get involved.

On the bright side, since this new tone, the Challenge has been growing rapidly, with more new people than ever. This year's town hall is going to be massive, and I can't wait to hear everyone's input.

In reply to Tom Suddard:

I think that is smart.

I also think the timing is not so good, and there is no letter of the rules on this issue. Fluids are not mentioned- parts are. Just as spending money on concours items that are not the car are not mentioned.

This doesn't effect me or my budget. But it looks like there are quite a few people who had a clear understanding of something that is about to be changed at the last minute.

You know I will always work with whatever rules you come up with.

Btw, if you're short on budget, I recommend deleting your alternator or your battery. You don't need both for a 40-second autocross run.

The tech guys are sticklers for battery tie downs. Would you need one if you didnt have a battery?

I like new guys that ask questions that make us all rethink the way the rules read.