http://www.thedrive.com/news/23967/bmw-waves-goodbye-to-the-3-series-manual-transmission
It's almost a surprise it took them this long. The manual take rate on camaros is down around 20%. I believe 86/BRZ, Miata and 370z are the only cars with significant manual sales volume.
I've been a manual guy for most of my life, but having driven several new automatics with paddle shifters (including a BMW), I am about ready to say good bye to the 3rd pedal. If you drive it right, I found it just as engaging and it shifted so much faster. I think with a good one, it would be faster on an autocross course too as it seemed to minimize weight transfer if you had to shift while the car was loaded up. The problem now is that a manual is at a disadvantage in terms of performance so the argument for them is simply to amuse us who have driven them for years. I fear their years are numbered, probably in terms of single digits.
It's appalling, but hardly unexpected. BMW lost the plot a number of years ago, and hasn't even tried to find it again, instead wandering happily off through the soccer mom/corporate striver/clueless rich 19-year-old jackhole looking glass. Anybody interested in actually driving is no longer part of their target demographic. I own two, and I love them, but unless there's an armed revolt at corporate in the very near future, I expect they will have gone over permanently to the Dark Side.
When the rest of the world moves on, I'll still have my manual transmissions.
What I want to know is, how are all motorcycles not paddle shifted now too? I would imagine all the Goldwing and Harley folks would be ecstatic with A/C, cup holders and automatics transmissions.
Snrub said:It's almost a surprise it took them this long. The manual take rate on camaros is down around 20%. I believe 86/BRZ, Miata and 370z are the only cars with significant manual sales volume.
WRX/STi....which (IIRC) only come in manual. I imagine a good chunk of GTIs are sold in manual as well.
I won't worry until Mazda throws in the towel.
Nobody is lamenting the demise of manual ignition timing control. Why is everyone so up in arms about the ability to be at fault for having the car in the wrong gear?
crankwalk said:What I want to know is, how are all motorcycles not paddle shifted now too?
What do you think that lever you wiggle with your left foot does?
Paddle shifft is a manual shifter you can reach without taking your hands off the controls. (A feature banned from WRC, I might add)
irish44j said:Snrub said:It's almost a surprise it took them this long. The manual take rate on camaros is down around 20%. I believe 86/BRZ, Miata and 370z are the only cars with significant manual sales volume.
WRX/STi....which (IIRC) only come in manual. I imagine a good chunk of GTIs are sold in manual as well.
I thought people were whining that you could only get a WRX with a CVT, no manual.
A shame, Subaru KNOWS how to do CVT. They have that E36 M3 down. But you can't make ricer blowoff valve noises with a CVT, so it must be bad, I guess...
Knurled. said:Nobody is lamenting the demise of manual ignition timing control. Why is everyone so up in arms about the ability to be at fault for having the car in the wrong gear?
well I mean, will we complain when there is no longer a steering wheel to cause us to be at fault for hitting things?
Knurled. said:irish44j said:Snrub said:It's almost a surprise it took them this long. The manual take rate on camaros is down around 20%. I believe 86/BRZ, Miata and 370z are the only cars with significant manual sales volume.
WRX/STi....which (IIRC) only come in manual. I imagine a good chunk of GTIs are sold in manual as well.
I thought people were whining that you could only get a WRX with a CVT, no manual. IDK what ricer noises....my WRX had a bypass valve and made zero BOV noises on 18psi.
A shame, Subaru KNOWS how to do CVT. They have that E36 M3 down. But you can't make ricer blowoff valve noises with a CVT, so it must be bad, I guess...
CVT is on the turbo Crosstrek, and the Forester, and the other Subarus.....but not even available on the WRX/STi that I'm aware of.
IDK if you're being facetious or not, but I had a loaner CVT Impreza a couple months ago (WRX was getting airbag recall done) and that was the lousiest, most miserable driving experience I think I've ever had, primarily thanks to the CVT mated to an underwhelming engine and AWD.....Sure, it didn't blow up. But I actually parked the loaner and drove my big stupid Sequoia to work, which is probably sportier than that Impreza was...
In reply to irish44j :
The best CVT I have ever driven was in an Impreza. It did exactly what you'd expect of a CVT: kept the engine at the most efficient RPM for the amount of power you requested via the accelerator pedal.
You poosha the pedal, the car, she go a-VOOM.
It was like driving a car with a computer controlled torque converter. Ultimate of all worlds.
Looked at Subaru's website - CVT is available on the regular WRX, not on the STi. There are probably a few other cars we haven't considered, but the point is it's now almost exclusively something available in low volume cars.
I can't say I've driven a huge number of modern automatics, but all I've driven sucked for enthusiasts. eg. The auto in the smaller engined Camaros can shift extremely quickly once it gets going and even holds the revs up in case you'd like to floor it some more, but it's reluctant to respond to initial throttle inputs. You end up giving it more throttle than ideal, which causes it to downshift 7 gears and light up the tires.
Snrub said:Looked at Subaru's website - CVT is available on the regular WRX, not on the STi. There are probably a few other cars we haven't considered, but the point is it's now almost exclusively something available in low volume cars.
I can't say I've driven a huge number of modern automatics, but all I've driven sucked for enthusiasts. eg. The auto in the smaller engined Camaros can shift extremely quickly once it gets going and even holds the revs up in case you'd like to floor it some more, but it's reluctant to respond to initial throttle inputs. You end up giving it more throttle than ideal, which causes it to downshift 7 gears and light up the tires.
I stand corrected, then. I know on the previous generation 09-14 they only came with m/t (the 2.5RS with the smaller turbo was available with the automatic, though).. I guess even they've given in to the fact that most kids these days don't know how to drive stick.
On a side note, had the GTI at a tire shop to check one of my tires for balance, and watching the 20-year old tire tech trying to get the car over the "bump" on the lift when he was done was cringe-worthy. I think it took him lik 10 tries since he was scared to drop the clutch......
crankwalk said:What I want to know is, how are all motorcycles not paddle shifted now too? I would imagine all the Goldwing and Harley folks would be ecstatic with A/C, cup holders and automatics transmissions.
I think they're just really old-fashioned. Button shift/automatic transmissions have been around a while. Hell, the Hondamatic predates my ass by a decade and a half. Air shifters are really popular on sport bikes these days, and slipper clutches, and auto-rev matching ECUs.
I think some Porsche GT3s with the PDK have a 'clutch kick' feature that lets you build revs for hard launches or to kick the tail out in corners. I'd like that feature; otherwise I'm pretty sold on paddle shift cars for daily driving.
irish44j said:Knurled. said:irish44j said:Snrub said:It's almost a surprise it took them this long. The manual take rate on camaros is down around 20%. I believe 86/BRZ, Miata and 370z are the only cars with significant manual sales volume.
WRX/STi....which (IIRC) only come in manual. I imagine a good chunk of GTIs are sold in manual as well.
I thought people were whining that you could only get a WRX with a CVT, no manual. IDK what ricer noises....my WRX had a bypass valve and made zero BOV noises on 18psi.
A shame, Subaru KNOWS how to do CVT. They have that E36 M3 down. But you can't make ricer blowoff valve noises with a CVT, so it must be bad, I guess...
CVT is on the turbo Crosstrek, and the Forester, and the other Subarus.....but not even available on the WRX/STi that I'm aware of.
IDK if you're being facetious or not, but I had a loaner CVT Impreza a couple months ago (WRX was getting airbag recall done) and that was the lousiest, most miserable driving experience I think I've ever had, primarily thanks to the CVT mated to an underwhelming engine and AWD.....Sure, it didn't blow up. But I actually parked the loaner and drove my big stupid Sequoia to work, which is probably sportier than that Impreza was...
Turbo crosstrek? Where? Sign me up. I had a 5-speed 2017 model and love love loved it. Minus the 9 seconds to 60, it was a great DD and very capable off-road. Just can't tow much :(
We have a 2016 Forester XT which only comes in CVT btw. It has a "Sport" and "Sport #" mode where you can use the paddle shifters to shift through your selection of 6-8 "fake gears." It's a terrible experience that feels nothing like really shifting a manual. At the drag strip the "Intelligent" mode left CVT mode was faster than the manual shifting options with the other throttle maps. Through 31k miles it hasn't given us any issues but it does buck a bit when its really hot at low speeds and in general is just wonky as all get up in certain situations.
As far as BMW going the way of Audi, it's expected. I feel like every F80 M3/4 I've seen at a track or in a parking lot has an auto. I've never truly driven a dual clutch car so I can't speak to that but these companies are all about bottom line. If more autos are selling then why the hell not nix the manual. We are but a select few that still enjoy.
Also outside of the new NSX, every Honda sporty car or one that has Si, S2000, or Type R attached to it, comes in manual only.
DirtyBird222 said:irish44j said:Knurled. said:irish44j said:Snrub said:It's almost a surprise it took them this long. The manual take rate on camaros is down around 20%. I believe 86/BRZ, Miata and 370z are the only cars with significant manual sales volume.
WRX/STi....which (IIRC) only come in manual. I imagine a good chunk of GTIs are sold in manual as well.
I thought people were whining that you could only get a WRX with a CVT, no manual. IDK what ricer noises....my WRX had a bypass valve and made zero BOV noises on 18psi.
A shame, Subaru KNOWS how to do CVT. They have that E36 M3 down. But you can't make ricer blowoff valve noises with a CVT, so it must be bad, I guess...
CVT is on the turbo Crosstrek, and the Forester, and the other Subarus.....but not even available on the WRX/STi that I'm aware of.
IDK if you're being facetious or not, but I had a loaner CVT Impreza a couple months ago (WRX was getting airbag recall done) and that was the lousiest, most miserable driving experience I think I've ever had, primarily thanks to the CVT mated to an underwhelming engine and AWD.....Sure, it didn't blow up. But I actually parked the loaner and drove my big stupid Sequoia to work, which is probably sportier than that Impreza was...
Turbo crosstrek? Where? Sign me up. I had a 5-speed 2017 model and love love loved it. Minus the 9 seconds to 60, it was a great DD and very capable off-road. Just can't tow much :(
We have a 2016 Forester XT which only comes in CVT btw. It has a "Sport" and "Sport #" mode where you can use the paddle shifters to shift through your selection of 6-8 "fake gears." It's a terrible experience that feels nothing like really shifting a manual. At the drag strip the "Intelligent" mode left CVT mode was faster than the manual shifting options with the other throttle maps. Through 31k miles it hasn't given us any issues but it does buck a bit when its really hot at low speeds and in general is just wonky as all get up in certain situations.
As far as BMW going the way of Audi, it's expected. I feel like every F80 M3/4 I've seen at a track or in a parking lot has an auto. I've never truly driven a dual clutch car so I can't speak to that but these companies are all about bottom line. If more autos are selling then why the hell not nix the manual. We are but a select few that still enjoy.
Also outside of the new NSX, every Honda sporty car or one that has Si, S2000, or Type R attached to it, comes in manual only.
hah, meant Turbo Forester. Now that i sold my WRX, I clearly have lost any Subaru knowledge I ever had...........
Sigh, this E36 M3 again.
Can you luddites go drag one of the previous threads up and continue arguing?
The rest of us will be over here in the modern world where autos and manumatics are faster than the old school manuals and can consume less gas with less emissions.
I can say that my FoRS would be faster and more enjoyable to drive with a semi-auto or a manumatic. The Golf R with their DSG box clicks off impress performance that is consistent and fast.
H patterns are nice but to be honest the most enthusiast of enthusiast paths is a motorcycle style sequential.
Stefan said:Sigh, this E36 M3 again.
Can you luddites go drag one of the previous threads up and continue arguing?
The rest of us will be over here in the modern world where autos and manumatics are faster than the old school manuals and can consume less gas with less emissions.
I can say that my FoRS would be faster and more enjoyable to drive with a semi-auto or a manumatic. The Golf R with their DSG box clicks off impress performance that is consistent and fast.
To be honest, I just posted this thread because I wanted to see what GRM thought. I only enjoy driving manual on the race track, but that's probably cause I'm getting older now.
In reply to Stefan :
It's not about speed or fuel economy for me. It is about the engagement with the car and enjoyment of driving. I've driven all types on and off track. Yes the DSGs are faster and now more efficient, but they take out the skill and challenge. I also prefer h-pattern on my 45 minute commute for the same reasons. Autos take the joy out of it for me.
GET OFF MY LAWN! 
PMRacing gets it. This is about being engaged in the joy of operating a machine. Flappy paddles may be more efficient but they aren't engaging.
Honda has several motorcycles available with auto shift gearboxes, not just the Gold Wings. They work well but most riders still shun them.
I sort of liken this trend to cars and bikes overall as progress continues. The bulk of people will be happy enough piloting their jellybean with all sorts of automatic features and electronic geegaws. A small number of us would rather be more involved in mastering the dance of the pedals. These are the guys who will keep old cars and bikes and enjoy them for the vastly more interactive experience they offer. I become less interested in new cars every year. I'll probably keep my 2006 Mustang forever as new stuff just isn't interesting to look at much less drive...even if they are worlds faster.
In reply to ddavidv :
That is what old cars are for.
Everyone here thinks the Miata is some awesome and engaging car to drive (which is it), but in comparison to older cars, it's not as interesting. My GTV is far more engaging to drive fast than either of my Miatas were, and modified Miatas with more performance are even worse- just more upper limit. On the other hand, the Alfa is fast, and it has a whole lot more feedback, from all over the car that the Miata can't come close to replicating.
But engagement also goes so far. When you spend most of your commute either at 70mph, or dealing with back ups on said freeway, having a manual isn't really an entertaining distraction at all. It's more of a PITA. And that's what is really pushing people away from manuals- the handful of times that it's great to have is more than offset by the times it's not. It's not dancing, it's either just standing still or and odd, repeating shuffle the sucks.
So the only time a manual is really the best to have is 1) competing (including just ordinary track days), or 2) driving a cool road. Neither of which are all that common to 99.9% of the driving public.
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