First Audi, and now BMW....(no more manuals)

Stefan said:

mtn said:

Show of hands, how many folks here have purchased a new vehicle with a manual transmission? How many have done it in the last 5 years? 

Of those that you have purchased, how many of them were either a Miata, Corvette, STi, BRZ, or 350Z?

 

Not hard to see why they're going in this direction. And it won't matter for long, soon enough most vehicles will be PHEV's, and not too long after that (or at hte same time) we'll basically be dealing with self-driving cars only. 

Me.  A Focus RS.  I actually sometimes wish it had a DSG or similar, it would be faster and match the engine's power range and the rest of the tech used in the car.

I'll cheat to add a couple, since 2010 I've purchased these cars new with a manual transmission:

2010 MazdaSpeed 3

2013 Mustang GT

2015 BRZ

And depending on what I think the next few months, it's very likely I'll trade the 135i in on a '19 Miata, manual transmission.

I really want something with a V8, but I already never get to use the 300/300 of the 135. So dropping $40k on a new muscle car just for the soundtrack probably isn't going to happen.

mtn said:

Show of hands, how many folks here have purchased a new vehicle with a manual transmission? How many have done it in the last 5 years? 

Of those that you have purchased, how many of them were either a Miata, Corvette, STi, BRZ, or 350Z?

 

Not hard to see why they're going in this direction. And it won't matter for long, soon enough most vehicles will be PHEV's, and not too long after that (or at hte same time) we'll basically be dealing with self-driving cars only. 

I bought a car last year. My 2017 JCW Mini is manual and probably the last manual car I'll be buying (just because any new car I will buy will be for basic commuting needs, not for "fun")

in the last 5 years I bought a slightly used Si Civic as a DD, because manual.  I already own an S2000. 

mtn said:

Show of hands, how many folks here have purchased a new vehicle with a manual transmission? How many have done it in the last 5 years? 

I've bought 3 new vehicles in my life and 2 of them were manual.

Everything I've bought in the last 30 years has been manual.

It's not a stupid discussion, some of us prefer manual transmission vehicles.

You can still buy a Colorado with a 6spd manual an I will probably buy one

Duke said:

Knurled. said:

Nobody is lamenting the demise of manual ignition timing control.  Why is everyone so up in arms about the ability to be at fault for having the car in the wrong gear?

We've had this debate a million times and you always drag this up.  Manual ignition timing control is indeed an analog way to interact with the car.  But unless you're a true contrarian, you have to admit that the poetic dance of driving a sports car with 3 pedals and a stick is much more joyfully engaging than sliding a quadrant a few degrees to quiet the spark knock.

It has nothing to do with speed or performance, and everything to do with leading a willing partner.

Fair enough.  I'll allow that, as long as we can also lament the lack of cars with manual steering, manual brakes, or sub-185 width tires.  All of which are personally more important to the driving experience than choosing for yourself which wrong gear to be in.

You're trying pretty hard to make a point but your analogies aren't helping

ProDarwin said:

PMRacing said:

In reply to Stefan :

It's not about speed or fuel economy for me.  It is about simplicity.

Fixed.  Even the new DSGs/other fancy shift boxes that are faster and more efficient have way more parts/cost/weight/potential for failure.  A car is, first and foremost, and appliance.  It should be simple, efficient, and robust.

 

OK, I lied, speed is a factor as well.

That all depends.  Some people make that argument against EFI because it has all those sensors to go bad, but you can fix points on the side of the road with a worn dime.

My manual transmission life is punctuated by frequent hydraulics changes, except for the Subaru and Golf, which had cable clutches that broke.  On the other hand I have had at least one Mazda in my life at all times since 1998.  Still can't get more than two years from a clutch master.

Part of the reason I hunted down a specific automatic model of Volvo is because I have yet to drive a manual trans drive by wire car that was not either completely maddening, or didn't have Corvette or Subaru in its name.

I’ll also add I also put my money where my mouth is in the I’ve bought a manual trans versa, Jetta and wrangler new off the lot in the last 8 years. If they made a manual transmission full size half ton  4x4 truck  I would have done that too.

Slowly going the way of the buffalo. 

It's a little frustrating BMW wouldn't at least have it available for special order...not that I'd buy a new BMW.  I suppose the volume wouldn't support the investment in emissions/safety certification?   I guess Hyundai/Genesis really is building a better 3-series (the new G70 will be sold with a manual).

DSG and some auto transmissions are better than a manual in many instances. That doesn't change my opinion though...I still want  a stick shift in all of my cars.  

Once Ford drops the Fiesta and Focus ST/RS, it'll be even more rare.  Subaru Forester is the only AWD SUV with a MT that I know of...who knows how much longer they'll have that option available.  The fact Honda included a manual on the SI and typr R civic is encouraging.  VW still offers a manual in all of its cars.  

I'm hoping to buy a Golf R with a manual transmission brand new in 2 years.  Whether they have it in the next gen Mk8 R is debatable.  Everything I've read so far is pointing towards a 400hp/DSG only combo, whether it's the current 2 liter with a hybrid system or the 5 cylinder motor from the RS3.

I'd LOVE a Golf R with the RS3 motor and a 6MT! 

Clearly, manual trasmissions appeal mostly to the enthusiast market. The last model where BMW took the traditional view was the 2006 Z4M, which they released with no choice but a manual 6 speed. It was probably also the last naturally aspirated high performance straigh 6 they will ever make (3.2 l., 333 bhp @ 7900 rpm).

In tha past many automatics were flawed because they didn't allow you to hold a gear - last thing you want all hung out in a corner is for the automatic to decide it was time to shift and break traction on you!  Today, even the Mazda 3 has a sequential tap shifter that will not change a gear until you tell it to.

If I were driving in stop and go commuter traffic, I would also prefer an auto.  But for sporting driving, it has to be a manual for me. The only automatic car I own (the Mazda is the wife's car) is a Jensen Interceptor, which wasn't offered with anything else.

Suprf1y said:

mtn said:

Show of hands, how many folks here have purchased a new vehicle with a manual transmission? How many have done it in the last 5 years? 

I've bought 3 new vehicles in my life and 2 of them were manual.

Everything I've bought in the last 30 years has been manual.

It's not a stupid discussion, some of us prefer manual transmission vehicles.

You can still buy a Colorado with a 6spd manual an I will probably buy one

I bought a manual WRX (and then sold it before the poor abused clutch and head gasket exploded). I can't imagine who would buy that car with a CVT, because half of the fun of street driving in it is trying to get the boost to stay on.

Knurled. said:

Duke said:

Knurled. said:

Nobody is lamenting the demise of manual ignition timing control.  Why is everyone so up in arms about the ability to be at fault for having the car in the wrong gear?

We've had this debate a million times and you always drag this up.  Manual ignition timing control is indeed an analog way to interact with the car.  But unless you're a true contrarian, you have to admit that the poetic dance of driving a sports car with 3 pedals and a stick is much more joyfully engaging than sliding a quadrant a few degrees to quiet the spark knock.

It has nothing to do with speed or performance, and everything to do with leading a willing partner.

Fair enough.  I'll allow that, as long as we can also lament the lack of cars with manual steering, manual brakes, or sub-185 width tires.  All of which are personally more important to the driving experience than choosing for yourself which wrong gear to be in.

 

 

I suppose now that automatics get better mileage than manuals, not to mention shift faster, they could be considered "better" than manuals.

So you are correct. This is the same as lamenting other improvements to cars. I would say that some of those things you mention, specifically manual steering, *do* make the driving experience better than the newer, improved version.

A great example is electric power steering. Is it an improvement over hydraulic power steering? Well, it is lighter, more reliable and cheaper...but you lose road feel. So on your ultimate-sporty-driver's car, you'd still want the hydraulic steering (and a MT, obviously). 

Snrub said:

It's almost a surprise it took them this long. The manual take rate on camaros is down around 20%. I believe 86/BRZ, Miata and 370z are the only cars with significant manual sales volume.

I'm actually surprised 20% of Camaros have manuals.  Conversely, I've been surprised at how many Challenger R/T and SRT models I see with manuals. 

I don't see me ever buying a modern BMW, so them dropping a manual option means little to me.

Dave M said:

A great example is electric power steering. Is it an improvement over hydraulic power steering? Well, it is lighter, more reliable and cheaper...but you lose road feel. So on your ultimate-sporty-driver's car, you'd still want the hydraulic steering (and a MT, obviously). 

I always thought the S2000 and RX8 felt pretty decent.

ProDarwin said:

Dave M said:

A great example is electric power steering. Is it an improvement over hydraulic power steering? Well, it is lighter, more reliable and cheaper...but you lose road feel. So on your ultimate-sporty-driver's car, you'd still want the hydraulic steering (and a MT, obviously). 

I always thought the S2000 and RX8 felt pretty decent.

I know tons of people complain about the electric steering in Coyote-era Mustangs and the BRZ/FR-S twins as well. 

/sarcasm

In reply to z31maniac :

The BMW electric steering is inferior to their previous system as well.  It's not bad, and you'd likely never notice......unless you drove cars back to back.  I have, and it's not as communicative.  The steering feels numb in comparison. 

I came to the conclusion long ago that auto manufacturers have little to no concern about what I want to buy from them.  What they think they can sell is of paramount importance.  Why would I consider purchasing a new car, if I can't get it the way I want?  I would have bought one of the dog ass ugly new Miatas if you could get it in a decent color, even with the funky electric power steering, like driving it with mittens.

Is it really true you can't buy a full size 4WD pickup with a standard transmission?  That is just crazy talk.

Joe Gearin said:

In reply to z31maniac :

The BMW electric steering is inferior to their previous system as well.  It's not bad, and you'd likely never notice......unless you drove cars back to back.  I have, and it's not as communicative.  The steering feels numb in comparison. 

Fair enough, the only BMW newer than 2009 I've spent any time in is my '13 135, which still has the classic old hydraulic system. And even with the narrow tires up front you always know exactly what they are doing. 

But I thought the steering in the BRZ was pretty dang good. And the Mustang in "sport" felt artificially heavy as a substitute for feel. 

I just think sometimes the "OMG it's TERRIBLE" is really more "Meh, I preferred it the other way."

BMW was well aware of the shortcomings of their eletcric power steering, which is why they went back to hydraulic specifically for the Z4M series alone.

Neither of the vehicles we currently drive are either faster or better on fuel with the auto trans and it's an expensive option. 

I don't see the advantage

Toebra said:

Is it really true you can't buy a full size 4WD pickup with a standard transmission?  That is just crazy talk.

As far as I know, the Ram 2500 / 3500 are the only full size pickups left with a manual trans option (and only with the Cummins, not the HEMI and only in some trim levels too).  None of the half tons offer it and Ford dropped it from the Superduties in 2011.  GM gave it up on the 2500 / 3500 much earlier than Ford. 

wspohn said:

BMW was well aware of the shortcomings of their eletcric power steering, which is why they went back to hydraulic specifically for the Z4M series alone.

I'm confused, the E46 was hydraulic steering as well, not surprising considering they have the same drivetrain.

mtn said:

Show of hands, how many folks here have purchased a new vehicle with a manual transmission? How many have done it in the last 5 years? 

Of those that you have purchased, how many of them were either a Miata, Corvette, STi, BRZ, or 350Z?

 

I purchased a new vehicle with a manual transmission 2 weeks ago (GTI). The car it replaced I purchased new as well, with a manual transmission (WRX). These are my commuter cars, which pretty much never see any motorsport action at all (maybe an occasional autocross), but do see some road trips. Absolutely there are occasional times I say "man, an automatic would be a bit more convenient" in the periodic DC traffic jam. But certainly never to the point where I'd actually consider buying an automatic car as an everyday driver - even with slightly better MPGs or performance. Commuting is boring enough without manual shifting ;)

So there you go, carmakers. I am a white-collar professional making enough money to buy "normal" cars new off the lot, and I only want manual. There were multiple cars that I was really, really interested in buying that were immediately taken off my list when I found that they weren't available with M/T. 

Dave M said:

A great example is electric power steering. Is it an improvement over hydraulic power steering? Well, it is lighter, more reliable and cheaper...but you lose road feel. So on your ultimate-sporty-driver's car, you'd still want the hydraulic steering (and a MT, obviously). 

EPS is rather like hydraulic in that it can be very good, or very bad.

I grew up on a car with zero-feel ultraboosted power steering.  Then I got a Subaru with on-center front suspension geometry and it was good.  Then I got a Japanese MGB-GT ('80 RX-7) and I was awed at the steering feel you get with a 2200lb car, 185/70 tires, and steering geometry that allowed that to work.  Nothing else since has been as good, except for the '83 911 that I got to sample for a while.  But Subaru still had the best power steering, in the 80s at least.

The car I have now has the typical "stiff = sporty" overdamped hydraulic power steering.  It also has fat rubberband tires, so it kinda NEEDS that in order to not tramline all over the place.  Tires with canoe shaped contact patches (tall and skinny) have enough self aligning torque that they pretty much handle themselves.  Wide, low profile tires need to have steering geometry that imposes its will on the tires, since they will not track straight on their own.

Tying this in to EPS.  I really like the GM motored-column systems for their simplicity and how much they do not kill road feel (such as it can be with the cars they are attached to).  But if you want BAD, I had an eye opener when I had a GM with a motored-rack system on the lift, running, and I tried to move the steering by grabbing the tire and shifting it.  Couldn't.  The car was actively preventing me from turning the steering just as much as if the column lock was engaged!  Now that there is a recipe for a horrible, zero-feel system.

This is whwre my commentary about tire sizing originates.  If you have a vehicle with tires that generate a lotmof self-aligning torque, you do not need steering setups that enforce stability.  This means the steering can be allowed to communicate what is happening on the road.

Automatic vs. manual doesn't bug me much.  But steering?  That is the primary vehicle control and the most tactile sensation you get in the driving experience, and so I take it VERY seriously.